Student Athlete

Jul 27, 08 - 12:27 AM

Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

I have been hanging around 60 miles per week for a few weeks now and xc starts in about 2 weeks. Do you think it would be a good idea to bring it down as soon as i get into practice and just do what my coach has me do or should i take advantage of the 1 or 2 days he gives us off and go on long runs (were talking possibly 15 mile runs). My coach has me doing in the 40's usually the 1st 2 weeks then it goes down into the 30s the rest of the season. Also I was thinking b/c there will be more speed workouts if i should possibly bring it down to 50 if I keep my mileage high

What are your thoughts?

Rob G

Jul 27th, 2008 - 1:20 AM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

I would think your coach has significant knowledge in training so go by what he wants you to do. X-C is only 2-2 1/2 months. You can always bump your mileage back up afterwards.

Becki

Jul 27th, 2008 - 2:04 AM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

You know your body better than we do. Talk to your coach about it, tell him your concerns. IMO, there's no reason to take that many days off if your body doesn't need it. Some people perform best off a day off per week, others on a day off per season...but if your body doesn't need the rest, why take 2 days off per week? But your coach may have a reason behind this, so it's important to communicate with him. It sounds like you built up a decent base...some people drop their mileage for speed, and others don't. Listen to your body and if your speedwork begins to suffer due to mileage, absolutely back off.

Personally, I think 15 mile runs are counterproductive for XC, assuming you're in high school and are doing 5K's, as opposed to being a college guy and finishing your season with 10K's. That's more endurance than you need, and you can probably be better served by doing something a little shorter and not putting that kind of stress on your legs. Again, talk to your coach.

Nate Z.

Jul 27th, 2008 - 11:32 AM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

tell your coach what kind of mileage you've been doing. If he knows what he's doing, he won't have you drop 20 mpw and and 2 days off per week. That's a formula for setting you up to peak in the beginning in the season... I would know. Those 2 days off are probably on the weekend right? Run on the weekends and don't drop until half way through your season. Stuck to that principle during Track and I thought I had a pretty good season.

"If I ran like the rest of them, I'd be back there with them" -Michael Johnson

Student Athlete

Jul 27th, 2008 - 4:46 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

First of all I have a kind of stubborn coach (great guy and I have alot of respect for him but his summer training has way too many hard track workouts, hill workouts, and up and down mileage) and he'd be mad I didnt stick to the training program. So talking to him about it is out of the question. The days he gives us off is saturday and sunday the 1st week, then the next week sunday,then when school starts up we take wednesdays and sundays off (usually) it's gonna be tough to balance out. i think im gonna stick w/t 60 or 50 a week till the last week of september then just do what we do at practice, but thats not set in stone. I was also thinking of what kyle said and thinking about doing 40 the 1st week of october then 35 the next week (which is probably about what my coach will have me doing) then just do what my coach has me doing.

Laurel

Jul 27th, 2008 - 5:33 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

It sounds to me like you already know what you're going to do and are looking for support or positive reinforcement. If you've already decided what you're going to do - and talking to the coach is "out of the question" - then stop looking for external support and do it. Also, if you were my athlete and I found out that you were modifying my training schedule as you saw fit - without consulting me first - you'd be off the team.

Like it or not, he's the coach. He calls the shots. Have you tried asking him why he's designed that particular training program, rather than challenging it (i.e., please explain the theory behind what we're doing so I learn from it)? What's his competitive background? He may know more than you're giving him credit for.

Just thoughts from someone who's seen a lot of coaches over the years - good, bad, and in-between.

TW

Jul 27th, 2008 - 5:39 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

Going for 15 mile runs on you roff days is usually a recipe for burn out. You'll run one or two good races early in the year and at districts, you'll be wondering why all those people are passing you. If you want to sneak out on your easy days, limit it to 3-5 miles.

I remember hearing a saying along the lines of, "If you run hard on your easy days, you'll run slow on you race days."

Jesse

Jul 27th, 2008 - 6:35 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

I would just come clean with your coach. Tell him why you felt it was necessary to do what you did and why you didn't like his workouts for the summer.

IMHO the relationship btw a runner and his coach is a mutual thing. A coach should understand what works for that paticular runner and a runner should understand exactly why is is doing what he is doing. If you respond to mileag he should understand that and if he feels hills in the summer will craft leg speed you need to understand that. In other words for the coach to do his job correctly he needs both subjective and objective feedback. Without that his plans will never make sense to you because they are crafted under false feedback.

It could be that you were just misunderstanding the purpose of the workouts. Ask for the rational behind the plan before you write it off. For example it's easy to look at a workout like 15x200's at mile race pace and think that it's not cundusive to base building. However, if you allow for full recovery the purpose might be to develope muscular conditioning/leg speed for later in season workouts rather than it be an anaerobic stimulas. You also mentioned hills. Hills can be run in 1000 different ways, some with the goal of being an anaerobic puke out your ears workout and others as a conditioning workout. Very different stimuli going on and you need to know what it is your trying to do.

Lyeing to your coah is not a good idea. If he perscribed hills the purpose I'm guesing was to build condition, leg speed and flexibility for the workouts you will be doing. If you tell him you did them he's going to throw workouts at you with the assumption that you have already build this initial strength. You'll get injured and I'm guessing assume it's his fault right?

You probably have a good idea of what or what doesn't work and this is the stuff to talk to the coach about. If he is just not willing to listen to his athlete's feedback than he should not be a coach(perhaps a drill sargent).

Student Athlete

Jul 27th, 2008 - 7:47 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

also i would be doing easy long runs the day after races....

Student Athlete

Jul 27th, 2008 - 7:53 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

btw i wasnt targeting all of u just mainly laurel

Student Athlete

Jul 27th, 2008 - 7:54 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

and laurel the guy was never a runner

Becki

Jul 27th, 2008 - 8:13 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

Laurel was giving you sound advice. If you don't want advice, maybe you shouldn't be asking for it.

Student Athlete

Jul 27th, 2008 - 9:19 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

I actually have done his program b4 and all it did was it got me in shape real fast and i burned out by the time xc started

Jesse

Jul 27th, 2008 - 9:24 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

"I actually have done his program b4 and all it did was it got me in shape real fast and i burned out by the time xc started "

And when you told him this he advised you to do it again?

runningG

Jul 27th, 2008 - 9:40 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

student-athlete

I know exactly where you are coming from.. ive been there and gone through this while i was in college...it was a miserable four years but i learned alot in that time.. like listening to my body and my instincts.. i am far from knowing it all but i know myself and i know a couple of things that maybe could help you out...

my coach was never that big into mileage..thought it was a waste to run more than like 40 or 50 miles/week....i, however, am a high mileage person....but i didnt know how to go about it the right way....the high mileage and long runs will help you over the summer...you really shouldnt do any speedwork over the summer.. just longer tempo runs, long runs, and regular/easy runs...nothing should be so hard that you are going anaerobic or anything ....keep up that sorta stuff until about the end of sept. like kyle said (so, like 60 miles/week or whatever it is you are doing now)....at that time, you should start your faster stuff...maybe even a little before then actually...but basically you get yourself race ready... i would treat any races prior to then as workouts or tempo runs. anyways, you can still do your long run but shorten it...maybe like instead of 15, do 10 or 12...shorten your regular runs a bit too.....i mean, it sounds like you have the right idea. I dont know what your coach is thinking having you do hard workouts all summer, but whatever, maybe he thinks that will work... but the truth of the matter is, you wont have a very big peak of you dont put in the base...but it sounds like you already are doing that,so thats a good thing.
You probably should talk to your coach, tell him your thinking.. maybe even provide some sort of proof this system works.. give him examples...if he still doesnt agree with you or want you to do that.. well, then you have to make a decision.....do what you believe.....or believe in what he tells you. From personal experience....believing in your training is half the battle....probably more than half.....do what you feel is right....do some research and i think you will find your answer.

Goldberg

Jul 27th, 2008 - 9:40 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

stick to the 100mpw program.

AJ

Jul 27th, 2008 - 10:14 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

goldberg "stick to the 100mpw"

exactly

runner

Jul 27th, 2008 - 11:53 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

Some of the league's best runners never listened to their coach. I know this because I used to be their teammate. If you don't know the coach, don't make the judgment.

Jesse

Jul 28th, 2008 - 6:59 AM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

One of the things to think about is the "big picture". What you do in running this season isn't always going to yeild instant gratification. The mileage and workouts you do this year sets the stage for the next year and so on. I guess my point is when a coach tells a high school kid not to run over 40 MPW they probably see early burnout. Elite runners get 5-6 years of peak training(100+ mile weeks)before they have to settle on lesser performances. If you are logging 100 mile weeks at age 17 by the time your a senor in college you might be all washed up.

Laurel

Jul 29th, 2008 - 10:15 AM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

SA wrote:

"your [sic] not in my situation and u don't know my coach."

So tell me where you go to school and who your coach is. If I don't know him my husband probably does, or I can consult any of a number of people from your area. That way I can tailor my response to your exact situation.

Another option, if you're bound and determined to control your own destiny, is to quit the team and run unattached - do your racing through invitationals that allow open runners, or local road/XC races.

Laurel

Aug 3rd, 2008 - 8:02 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

Back to the original question...

SA, he may never have been a runner, but if he's been coaching for a while and is reasonably observant, he may have learned a thing or two over the years. And in one post, you say he's stubborn and you can't talk to him, but in another you say you're good friends. If you're really good friends you ought to be able to ask questions about his training program (which is different from questioning his training program) in a non-threatening way.

I also agree with those who say that his program may be a long-term view of running success. I've known a lot of talented high school runners who burned out spectacularly during college, or who were so tired of running by the time they left HS that they quit the sport completely.

Note that in my suggestion of quitting the team and running solo, I included "XC" along with road races. If you don't want to run road races, you certainly don't have to. In Michigan, at least, there are several XC races that are open to unattached runners. Same with track meets. They need not be HS events - club races can be very competitive as well.

Finally, at the risk of inviting more disdain (and making myself sound REALLY old), as a HS student you are probably not old enough to know yet what your body can and cannot handle in terms of stress. Your body is still maturing and gaining strength. High mileage may bring success right now but may ultimately shorten your running career. Unfortunately the only way to find out is through experience. Hence, better to err on the side of caution. If you think you are college scholarship material, contact the coaches at the schools you're interested in and explain your situation (but don't expect a response until Sept 1 of your junior year per NCAA regulations).

Whatever you decide, good luck and have fun!

wvc runner

Aug 4th, 2008 - 12:04 AM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

i didnt listen to my coach 90% of the track season. im proud to say i hit my goal time. with a good winter base, a little jack daniels and just LISTENING to my body.

aaron wilkinson

Aug 4th, 2008 - 9:14 AM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

what school do you run for?

Laurel

Aug 5th, 2008 - 5:16 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

That happens a lot. It appears to be a stochastic process. Don't take it personally.

wvc runner

Aug 6th, 2008 - 5:52 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

DONT DELETE THIS POST.

Hank the Tank

Aug 6th, 2008 - 11:24 PM

Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage?

I think he would have told us right off the bat where he went to school if he really wanted us to know.

Author	Comment
Student Athlete Jul 27, 08 - 12:27 AM	Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? I have been hanging around 60 miles per week for a few weeks now and xc starts in about 2 weeks. Do you think it would be a good idea to bring it down as soon as i get into practice and just do what my coach has me do or should i take advantage of the 1 or 2 days he gives us off and go on long runs (were talking possibly 15 mile runs). My coach has me doing in the 40's usually the 1st 2 weeks then it goes down into the 30s the rest of the season. Also I was thinking b/c there will be more speed workouts if i should possibly bring it down to 50 if I keep my mileage high What are your thoughts?
Rob G Jul 27th, 2008 - 1:20 AM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? I would think your coach has significant knowledge in training so go by what he wants you to do. X-C is only 2-2 1/2 months. You can always bump your mileage back up afterwards.
Becki Jul 27th, 2008 - 2:04 AM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? You know your body better than we do. Talk to your coach about it, tell him your concerns. IMO, there's no reason to take that many days off if your body doesn't need it. Some people perform best off a day off per week, others on a day off per season...but if your body doesn't need the rest, why take 2 days off per week? But your coach may have a reason behind this, so it's important to communicate with him. It sounds like you built up a decent base...some people drop their mileage for speed, and others don't. Listen to your body and if your speedwork begins to suffer due to mileage, absolutely back off. Personally, I think 15 mile runs are counterproductive for XC, assuming you're in high school and are doing 5K's, as opposed to being a college guy and finishing your season with 10K's. That's more endurance than you need, and you can probably be better served by doing something a little shorter and not putting that kind of stress on your legs. Again, talk to your coach.
Nate Z. Jul 27th, 2008 - 11:32 AM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? tell your coach what kind of mileage you've been doing. If he knows what he's doing, he won't have you drop 20 mpw and and 2 days off per week. That's a formula for setting you up to peak in the beginning in the season... I would know. Those 2 days off are probably on the weekend right? Run on the weekends and don't drop until half way through your season. Stuck to that principle during Track and I thought I had a pretty good season. "If I ran like the rest of them, I'd be back there with them" -Michael Johnson
Student Athlete Jul 27th, 2008 - 4:46 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? First of all I have a kind of stubborn coach (great guy and I have alot of respect for him but his summer training has way too many hard track workouts, hill workouts, and up and down mileage) and he'd be mad I didnt stick to the training program. So talking to him about it is out of the question. The days he gives us off is saturday and sunday the 1st week, then the next week sunday,then when school starts up we take wednesdays and sundays off (usually) it's gonna be tough to balance out. i think im gonna stick w/t 60 or 50 a week till the last week of september then just do what we do at practice, but thats not set in stone. I was also thinking of what kyle said and thinking about doing 40 the 1st week of october then 35 the next week (which is probably about what my coach will have me doing) then just do what my coach has me doing.
Laurel Jul 27th, 2008 - 5:33 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? It sounds to me like you already know what you're going to do and are looking for support or positive reinforcement. If you've already decided what you're going to do - and talking to the coach is "out of the question" - then stop looking for external support and do it. Also, if you were my athlete and I found out that you were modifying my training schedule as you saw fit - without consulting me first - you'd be off the team. Like it or not, he's the coach. He calls the shots. Have you tried asking him why he's designed that particular training program, rather than challenging it (i.e., please explain the theory behind what we're doing so I learn from it)? What's his competitive background? He may know more than you're giving him credit for. Just thoughts from someone who's seen a lot of coaches over the years - good, bad, and in-between.
TW Jul 27th, 2008 - 5:39 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? Going for 15 mile runs on you roff days is usually a recipe for burn out. You'll run one or two good races early in the year and at districts, you'll be wondering why all those people are passing you. If you want to sneak out on your easy days, limit it to 3-5 miles. I remember hearing a saying along the lines of, "If you run hard on your easy days, you'll run slow on you race days."
Jesse Jul 27th, 2008 - 6:35 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? I would just come clean with your coach. Tell him why you felt it was necessary to do what you did and why you didn't like his workouts for the summer. IMHO the relationship btw a runner and his coach is a mutual thing. A coach should understand what works for that paticular runner and a runner should understand exactly why is is doing what he is doing. If you respond to mileag he should understand that and if he feels hills in the summer will craft leg speed you need to understand that. In other words for the coach to do his job correctly he needs both subjective and objective feedback. Without that his plans will never make sense to you because they are crafted under false feedback. It could be that you were just misunderstanding the purpose of the workouts. Ask for the rational behind the plan before you write it off. For example it's easy to look at a workout like 15x200's at mile race pace and think that it's not cundusive to base building. However, if you allow for full recovery the purpose might be to develope muscular conditioning/leg speed for later in season workouts rather than it be an anaerobic stimulas. You also mentioned hills. Hills can be run in 1000 different ways, some with the goal of being an anaerobic puke out your ears workout and others as a conditioning workout. Very different stimuli going on and you need to know what it is your trying to do. Lyeing to your coah is not a good idea. If he perscribed hills the purpose I'm guesing was to build condition, leg speed and flexibility for the workouts you will be doing. If you tell him you did them he's going to throw workouts at you with the assumption that you have already build this initial strength. You'll get injured and I'm guessing assume it's his fault right? You probably have a good idea of what or what doesn't work and this is the stuff to talk to the coach about. If he is just not willing to listen to his athlete's feedback than he should not be a coach(perhaps a drill sargent).
Student Athlete Jul 27th, 2008 - 7:47 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? also i would be doing easy long runs the day after races....
Student Athlete Jul 27th, 2008 - 7:53 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? btw i wasnt targeting all of u just mainly laurel
Student Athlete Jul 27th, 2008 - 7:54 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? and laurel the guy was never a runner
Becki Jul 27th, 2008 - 8:13 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? Laurel was giving you sound advice. If you don't want advice, maybe you shouldn't be asking for it.
Student Athlete Jul 27th, 2008 - 9:19 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? I actually have done his program b4 and all it did was it got me in shape real fast and i burned out by the time xc started
Jesse Jul 27th, 2008 - 9:24 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? "I actually have done his program b4 and all it did was it got me in shape real fast and i burned out by the time xc started " And when you told him this he advised you to do it again?
runningG Jul 27th, 2008 - 9:40 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? student-athlete I know exactly where you are coming from.. ive been there and gone through this while i was in college...it was a miserable four years but i learned alot in that time.. like listening to my body and my instincts.. i am far from knowing it all but i know myself and i know a couple of things that maybe could help you out... my coach was never that big into mileage..thought it was a waste to run more than like 40 or 50 miles/week....i, however, am a high mileage person....but i didnt know how to go about it the right way....the high mileage and long runs will help you over the summer...you really shouldnt do any speedwork over the summer.. just longer tempo runs, long runs, and regular/easy runs...nothing should be so hard that you are going anaerobic or anything ....keep up that sorta stuff until about the end of sept. like kyle said (so, like 60 miles/week or whatever it is you are doing now)....at that time, you should start your faster stuff...maybe even a little before then actually...but basically you get yourself race ready... i would treat any races prior to then as workouts or tempo runs. anyways, you can still do your long run but shorten it...maybe like instead of 15, do 10 or 12...shorten your regular runs a bit too.....i mean, it sounds like you have the right idea. I dont know what your coach is thinking having you do hard workouts all summer, but whatever, maybe he thinks that will work... but the truth of the matter is, you wont have a very big peak of you dont put in the base...but it sounds like you already are doing that,so thats a good thing. You probably should talk to your coach, tell him your thinking.. maybe even provide some sort of proof this system works.. give him examples...if he still doesnt agree with you or want you to do that.. well, then you have to make a decision.....do what you believe.....or believe in what he tells you. From personal experience....believing in your training is half the battle....probably more than half.....do what you feel is right....do some research and i think you will find your answer. Email: hotrockin2905@msn.com
Goldberg Jul 27th, 2008 - 9:40 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? stick to the 100mpw program.
AJ Jul 27th, 2008 - 10:14 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? goldberg "stick to the 100mpw" exactly
runner Jul 27th, 2008 - 11:53 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? Some of the league's best runners never listened to their coach. I know this because I used to be their teammate. If you don't know the coach, don't make the judgment.
Jesse Jul 28th, 2008 - 6:59 AM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? One of the things to think about is the "big picture". What you do in running this season isn't always going to yeild instant gratification. The mileage and workouts you do this year sets the stage for the next year and so on. I guess my point is when a coach tells a high school kid not to run over 40 MPW they probably see early burnout. Elite runners get 5-6 years of peak training(100+ mile weeks)before they have to settle on lesser performances. If you are logging 100 mile weeks at age 17 by the time your a senor in college you might be all washed up.
Laurel Jul 29th, 2008 - 10:15 AM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? SA wrote: "your [sic] not in my situation and u don't know my coach." So tell me where you go to school and who your coach is. If I don't know him my husband probably does, or I can consult any of a number of people from your area. That way I can tailor my response to your exact situation. Another option, if you're bound and determined to control your own destiny, is to quit the team and run unattached - do your racing through invitationals that allow open runners, or local road/XC races.
Laurel Aug 3rd, 2008 - 8:02 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? Back to the original question... SA, he may never have been a runner, but if he's been coaching for a while and is reasonably observant, he may have learned a thing or two over the years. And in one post, you say he's stubborn and you can't talk to him, but in another you say you're good friends. If you're really good friends you ought to be able to ask questions about his training program (which is different from questioning his training program) in a non-threatening way. I also agree with those who say that his program may be a long-term view of running success. I've known a lot of talented high school runners who burned out spectacularly during college, or who were so tired of running by the time they left HS that they quit the sport completely. Note that in my suggestion of quitting the team and running solo, I included "XC" along with road races. If you don't want to run road races, you certainly don't have to. In Michigan, at least, there are several XC races that are open to unattached runners. Same with track meets. They need not be HS events - club races can be very competitive as well. Finally, at the risk of inviting more disdain (and making myself sound REALLY old), as a HS student you are probably not old enough to know yet what your body can and cannot handle in terms of stress. Your body is still maturing and gaining strength. High mileage may bring success right now but may ultimately shorten your running career. Unfortunately the only way to find out is through experience. Hence, better to err on the side of caution. If you think you are college scholarship material, contact the coaches at the schools you're interested in and explain your situation (but don't expect a response until Sept 1 of your junior year per NCAA regulations). Whatever you decide, good luck and have fun!
wvc runner Aug 4th, 2008 - 12:04 AM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? i didnt listen to my coach 90% of the track season. im proud to say i hit my goal time. with a good winter base, a little jack daniels and just LISTENING to my body.
aaron wilkinson Aug 4th, 2008 - 9:14 AM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? what school do you run for? Email: aaronxc457@aim.com
Laurel Aug 5th, 2008 - 5:16 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? That happens a lot. It appears to be a stochastic process. Don't take it personally.
wvc runner Aug 6th, 2008 - 5:52 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? DONT DELETE THIS POST.
Hank the Tank Aug 6th, 2008 - 11:24 PM	Re: Adjusting To Cross Country From High Mileage? I think he would have told us right off the bat where he went to school if he really wanted us to know.