Hey - how about starting a discussion on a book project that would include all known varations of conetops and picture fronts & side panels? I know this wouldnt be easy, but if people could start with their home state or speciality and go from there.

First off, we would need a list of all cones & varartions. You could enlist can scouts for each state & part of the country. My brother Dan & Scott Field, could do California & Colorado. Carl could do Washington state. Steve Armstrong: Idaho & Wyoming. Ed Sipos: Arizona, Ice-Man & Steve F - Texas & Olkahoma, etc, etc. And if dosnt have to be one or tow people for each state - its whoever wants to join in and help. If we break it down among members, just getting the intial list together could go along pretty fast.

Then get in touch with the premier cone top collectors in the country and ask if they would be so kind to have their cans photograghed, and then add on from there.

We could use Kevin Lelik for his technical expertise to get the thing laid out and publish..... Just a thought and maybe can be discussed at canvention. Maybe a chance to funnel al this "extra" energy into something positive?

Maybe not even a book - maybe with Randy K's help, we could do it on volumes of CDs of states and areas of the country (for the samller states)???? Just a thought...

Ed

Ed,

This is something I've actually worked on on and off for several years. I've got a spreadsheet that started with the one the Lewandowskis put together, adding USBC references,what may have been missing that I had in the BCCA Catalog of Cone Tops plus any variations that I knew of. There have been many such variations brought to light in this forum.

There are obviously many specialist that would be needed in specific areas. I'm sure some of the names you mentioned could do their areas of knowledge and expertise. As another example, you couldn't do Beverwyck without Charlie Bacon's input. I'm pretty knowledgeable on Fitzgeralds, but I'm betting Dave Lang or other NE RBers know of variations I do not know about.

I'm open to further discussion on this topic.

Phil

I've actually been harrassing Bacon to do a photo guide
to quarts, he already has a composite listing about 500
different that he's verified, so he knows where many of
them are. Putting it on cd or the web would be perfect for a
homegrown effort like this, with no big up-front costs or loss
of creative control. There are enough specialists either by
state or by cone type, to split the job up (except for maybe
the big fat category of hi pro cones).

Another improvement would be include only one face of each can, then a
back or simple detail shot to show the variant. (Bacon's idea) And
with no paper printing, dull gray cans would actually look dull gray.

There are so many back panels that have never been pictured, this would
be a very cool book. I'd be in for doing some quart photography! There
are several large collections here in the east to get a start.

You'd need only to specify the file and image size, and then any number of
capable collector/photographers from all over could contribute via cd. And
Dave W. could ferret out all the digital fakes!

I think it's a great idea and I've often thought of hitting Phil up to use his list as the starting point. How about making this a RB project and doing it web based at first so it can be manageable and affordable?

I also agree that this is a great idea. I am by far no expert on cone tops,but will help out any way needed.

Now I am shooting from the hip here---But I bet when Phil did the DGR articles on cones in Rustlings, I am sure he thought he could get this done in a yr or so--not a 7 yr project! But with Phil's work you now have a extremly valuable source on cone top var.

As Matt said---The amount of hi-pro cone var. could be overwelming,but cool to know about!! Maybe the idea should be to start out w/lo-pro cones as there are fewer of these and see how it works,but than you eliminate guys in states where lo-pro cones were not produced and cant help much.

Yea---I know---I am rambling but like this idea

Later---Brent

I'm all in on this one. I'll be happy to share my Lo pros for any photographing. After seeing the KEvins OI book I'd love to see someone take the time to put together, as a start, a lo pro book.

Just based on my experience with what work I have done I would find it easier to work on the cones by state, brewery or brand as opposed to LP vs. HP. Some brands/breweries (e.g Beverwyck, different Rainier Brewing cones)are rather complicated with correctly identifying all the variations and book references. If I was to amalyze the brand/brewery, I'd just assume do it once. My 2 cents.

This could be a separate discussion, aside from the chapter meeting, at Canvention.

Phil

Right on! I think as a group, if we can resource everyone, this project may fly. I could do Chicago cones with Buddy Bakers help - since he lives in Chicago. Not sure who be the Wisconsin & Minnesota expert - but they are out there. Guys who specialize know the varations and what they are missing and WHO has it.

Breaking it down by areas and states would work too. California could be a volume. The NW (Wa,OR,Id,WY,MT) could be another volume. Colorado, TX,AZ,NB & OK could be another. Penn might be 2 volumes????

Ed

I'll take Oregon, it only has one cone top. The Blitz cones are fakes so that only leaves the Brown Derby quart from Salem.

Scott

Ed/All. I have been hoping the BCCA would initiate a "digital USBC" since I got back into collecting in 2001. Since the RB seems to be pioneering movement of collecting into the digital world, a web hosted or DVD pictorial/composite of all sides/panels of all known beer cans is a great idea. I say don't limit to cone tops, but ALL U.S. beer cans, even OI cans.

     

As for Michigan cone tops, simply click this link/images for all known Michigan cone tops I have been able to document: Michigan Cone Top Pictorial. Once the images/information are available digitally, we can generate whatever HTML we want to view the content: by state, by brewery, by can type, by can size, searchable, ...

While the USBC is a nice book, so many cans have awesome side panels, with much more interesting details than shown on the can face. Plus, unlike a static book, web hosted digital information can easily be expanded, allowing for dynamic additions of newly discovered or simply missed variations. I am convinced collectors being able to view a web hosted pictorial of what has been photographed would lead to inclusion of all known variations, much , much faster than can scouts or hosting of a JPG text file of cans still needed, ala the tab top book.

And unlike a book which is a "big bang production" and unchangeable once it comes back from the printer, a web hosted, digital publication can be updated as new content becomes available, only limited by the time availability of the person(s) updating content. New variations can be added, pictures can be updated with better pictures, text information can be corrected. And, we can start anywhere, just one brewery, one brand, one state, one collector's collection, and everyone able to view as this project grows, not some unknown quantity hidden away for many years until a book able to be published.

This project should be discussed at the KC canvention as well as this message board. The program I wrote to generate my MBC HTML has already been modified to handle non-Michigan, and I might be interested in helping drive collection/hosting of content (e.g. put together requirements and process for collectors to submit new variations). My only major requirement would be this information be freely web hosted, no passwords, no logins. The intent would be to make this info available to the entire collecting and non-collecting world, to encourage growth of this hobby, not worry about "intellectual property" or "how are we going to make a buck".

Randy Karasek
www.mbcinfo.com

Additional comments following Ed's latest post:

Once the information is available digitally, it is fairly easy to have a program generate HTML by whatever categories people want to view. By state, by brewery, can size, can type are obvious ones, but by LP/HP/J-spout, by Quarts, cans which start with "A", whatever... Make all the information available, and from there people can be view whatever their collecting interest.

One more thing, while information would be copyrighted by the Rusty Bunch, once information web hosted, people will steal/borrow the images, and the work will be used elsewhere (e.g. people posting images/content in Ebay auctions). Still, this negative far outweighs the positive, and I feel we should view this as part of promoting the hobby, not fearing it.

-Randy

hey Randy

how much "web space" would be used up to show 3 pix per can for all cones??

out

dan

For my www.mbcinfo.com web site I have 711 Michigan beer can variations documented, taking 281 Mb of disk space. Now this includes small, medium, and large images for all Michigan cans (13 JPEG per can * 711 = 9,243 images) plus some "full" images for the rarer and more interesting cans.

I believe I pay $170 every two years to web host this content. Full pictorial of cone tops, or full pictorial of all beer cans likely to require much more disk space and more cost, but frankly, even $1000/year seems like a trivial investment from an organization supporting the hobby, and likely even possible to get server/space donated.

We also don't have to web host all the detailed JPEG content. For example, web host the small and medium JPEG, and if collectors want full resolution details, purchase DVDs?

-Randy

My question involves site security. Just suppose that there is someone who wants to tear down what has been built.......they want to corrupt the site, in other words.
Are there measures in place that would allow security on the site so that it wouldn't be hijacked? Further, who would host the site? BCCA? RB? A private individual? Somebody has to run it, right, and pay the fees. Although the hosting fees seem minimal, the $$ has to be ponied up from somewhere. Much of our money goes to publish and send the Rustlings, we produce a hard copy because not all our members have computers, and much of our RB membership does not visit this site.
Unless the site were secure, I wouldn't be in favor of it being open to the public. There have to be benefits of membership in an organization, that's why the Rustlings is NOT published on this site..... no way would I want to have to deal with the public after having to deal with the wha-wha junk that shows up here........

And dat's my $.02.

John

John - I don't know about the security issues, but I assume they are manageable. Randy, Dan and others are much better suited to address these.

As for the funds, I'd love to see the RB take the lead if possible. If the fees are basically fixed annually plus whatever setup costs for photos, etc, I would be willing to donate some $$ specifically for any out of pocket expenses the club would have - I'm sure others would as well. Obviously all of this needs to be identified and managed up front, but the real cost would be the time that people donate to the cause. Sorry that I won't be able to see y'all in KC, but if someone could identify financial requirements then I'm sure you can discuss and vote on next steps.

I'll picth in to. This is a great idea!

P.S. Steve I'm glad to see you back in the newsroom. A little birdy told you sold off your awesome Pearl collection. Say it ain't so!

Later,

Tom I.

Because of historical, virtual beatings I have taken on this forum by folks here twisting my input on security, intellectual property, and capitalistic opportunity into some sort of perverse slant that I somehow don't appreciate the general idea or the effort involved.....I feel compeled to issue the following statement:

I, Rand Lindsly, do hereby declare, now and for perpetuity, that I wholeheartedly approve of, like, favor, want, desire, and in all ways support the notion of a web site that houses detailed pictures of beer cans sufficient enough to capture the can's uniqueness. Further, I would like all assembled to bear witness to the fact that I fully appreciate any and all efforts, thoughts, sweat, or contributions of those involved in the project from now until the end of time.

Now...with that said.....any reflections on my following comments taken out of the context above will be summarilly ignored as being woefully uninformed.

I agree with John. There needs to be a sustainable source of revenue to keep the site/project/effort alive. While I appreciate the intent and spirit behind Steve's offer....and likely similar desires by all of us to "chip in"....my observations through life are that this approach is not sustainable.

I have a suggestion that I think would satisfy the desire to keep the site "free" as well as generate revenue. If the site were to become the virtual mecca for beer can collectors.....and all eyes went there first to research a variation......beer can vendors (like most of you who sell on ebay) would want to alert someone looking at that variation that one might be for sale. If we included the capability to have a "buy it now" button at the bottom of each can, that people could link their ebay auction, personal web site, etc. to....for a modest fee of say $.10/day/can.....I think we could keep the web site "free".....we could generate revenue to pay for the various ISP bills....PLUS provide a service for the users who want to actually collect one of those cans!

That's my $.10 (5x as much as you wanted)

Rand

That's a thought Rand, but may make things too complicated keeping
track of dimes and days.
How about a onetime fee of a buck or two for a one-month link
off to the side of the main page? Could be put up and taken
down in a few minutes just one day a month, with no avenue for dispute and
no need to tweak the link during the month.
Could be kind of like the explicitly paid promos off to the right on a
google search. Or would this open up the site to any responsibility if
a deal went awry?

Ok ill throw the anchor post in and say its a fantastic idea! As far as security how hard is it to make the pictures so people can only view and not save them. Ive been to some websites where you cant right click and save the photos, steves beercanman site is like that so that should be a issue. Not sure how much i can help but will if i can in the NY area......cant wait to see all the beverwyck variations out there!!! also im sure if someone asked marc tracy he would help with the J's, who else would know more about those?
mike

>Or would this open up the site to any responsibility if a deal went awry?

Not if were prefaced in some way with all the appropriate disclaimers. "We, the god fearin' citizens of the Uninsured Rusty Bunch, do hearby wash our hands of any thing that might happen once you poke this link"...etc etc.

Rand

Couple of comments:

1. Start charging for usage, even pennies a day, creates contracts (implied or explicit) with users, and certain requirements must be satisfied (e.g. site uptime, routing of purchases to that user, what if the buyer is unhappy with a transaction, etc.). If concern for liablity great care must be taken if $$$ become involved. If content freely web hosted, take it or leave it. As long as content does not violate any laws then should be no possible harm.

2. Hopefully the focus on such a project is the collection of the information, with web hosting simply the medium for others viewing. No commercialization, no guarantees of valid content or how often data would be updated/corrected. I would like to think such a project could be produced and maintained simply for the "promotion of the hobby".

-Randy

I agree that it would be best to have a noncommercial site,
but if we don't want to rely on voluntary donations or paid advertising,
the only option I see beyond a well-heeled member footing the bill
would be a dues increase or one-time charge. I'm guessing this would
create a small mutiny of people who prefer to minimize their cash outlay.
No matter how you cut it, someone will be stuck with something they're not
entirely happy with. Can someone think of a better option? Maybe the can
companies might make a donation?

Hey Tom - I've still been checking out the site several times a day since even since I started cutting back on the collection, just don't get around to posting very often. Unfortunately I did get rid of much of the Pearl collection - I did keep my favorites though and still have the Texas cans.

As for funding a project like this, the first thing we need to do is figure out how much $$ we are talking about. From there I guess we could then determine if it's feasible or not and what our options are.

I really don't see the web hosting $$$ the issue with this project. Instead, it is the time/labor involved with the photographing and collecting of data. This could be done with/without spending any $$$ for web hosting, though if current status was posted regularly to a website then easier for everyone to see what is left to contribute.

As with most "loosely coupled" internet projects, let it simply mature over time. Start somewhere (e.g. all Michigan variations have already been documented) and expand to other cans. Document quarts, J-spouts, crowntainers, likely starting with a specialist and grow from there. Even if the long term result is not freely webhosted, the internet still perfect medium for posting small thumbnail images of what has been documented to date.

Again, $$$ shouldn't be the limiting resource, instead, more in the time/labor in collecting consistent and quality photographs, willing to be submitted freely, no strings attached and no issues with others able to access the data.

-Randy

Sounds like a great idea to me too but you guys are putting the cart before the horse when you worry about how best to view the finished project. This is a monumental project to take on and will be very difficult to ever complete. Randy has done an outstanding job documenting the Michigan cans but just look at how much time and effort went in to that project. The amount of work to catalog and picture the remaining states will take long enough that web hosting is the least of our worries right now.

Having said all that-I'm all for it. Let's do it!

I well recall the effort that Phil put in to the project of cone top rarity but the end result was valuable. Hopefully, with many people joining together on this project as they did for the USBC book and upcoming (hopefully) Tab Top book, we could put together a compilation of pictures which would recognize all those variations which many RB'ers have learned to love.

I don't have any brilliant thoughts as to how such an internet project should be organized but would be glad to help however I could. As some of you know, I'm a big variation fan so this could be fun. Great idea if it's technically feasible.

I like the idea. Although I don't have many cones myself, I'll be glad to help wherever help is needed. Just let me know what needs to be done.

John

I agree with Dave (Rustmonger) that we may be getting a little too far ahead of ourselves. The data gathering and coordination is a humongous task in itself. There is already a good body of work in the USBC, but there are plenty of unlisted variations. There should be a spreasdsheet somewhere that the BCCA used for the USBC. There's the "base". How about the first steps are verification of the "base" and to gather information that are additions to the existing body of information?

Phil

>There should be a spreasdsheet somewhere that the BCCA used for the USBC. There's the "base". How about the first steps are verification of the "base" and to gather information that are additions to the existing body of information?

I refer you to a thread that Andy started some time ago entitled RB Brain Trust where he suggested:

Any project like this has to start with a listing of cans. Obviously the USBC is a great resource. Then there is the lengthy (but fun) process of filling in the variation holes. Maybe some type of Excell format would help and could be shared or even posted.

In that thread very little enthusiasm was generated over working on a text document vs. pictures. So, just from a human "seeing is believing" motivation, I think you are going to generate more interest by jumping past the text thing and doing your "spreadsheet" with pictures. Further, I think the phrase "A picture is worth a 1000 words" applies here. Rather than cobble together the 1000 words, I think folk are going to be more inclined to leverage digital photography to make all the Shakespeare go away.

Rand (justtryingtokeeptheconversationlively) Lindsly

Sounds like the chicken or the egg. Does a list come first to photograph or do we just start photographing and hope we get them all?

Phil

P.S. If a prior posting was quoted I guess I've "made it" in the forum. LOL

>Does a list come first to photograph or do we just start photographing and hope we get them all?

I don't think it the problem needs to be serialized like that. God forbid I find myself agreeing with Randy but he's right and it applies here.....a "loosely coupled" internet project is likely the way to go. If you get too rigid in the notion that a cannonical list must first be generated and vetted before you can work on the other aspects of the project...like photography...then it will bog down almost immediately.

With that said, I would also like to suggest that the web site being characterized as the "cart" in the "cart-horse" analogy is flawed. I envision a web site being up and running immediately. Pictures being posted on day one. Again....in violent agreement with Randy here in that a web hosted, digital publication can be updated as new content becomes available. Let's start the web site first and just upload pictures as they become available. Not only is that the better way to communicate, but it will also inspire folks to dig out their odd variations and submit them sooner as they see holes in the offerings.

Face it....fundamentally we are a visual crowd. I doubt many of us sit around in our homes and drool over spreadsheets listing all the cans we have tucked neatly away in our totes. No...we want to see them. And I think this effort should recognize that tendancy and leverage it.

Rand

I kinda like the idea of burning volumes of conetops by states/regions on CDs. Perhaps host a few cans as a teaser. Sell the CDs for chapter funds. Should be a huge money maker, but that's not really the point.

Maybe pick a state with a moderate number of cones - like less than 25 different total varations and see how it goes with a test run/site/layout/CD - whatever form. Then pick another state and another. Slowly building and tweeking it as it expands. Start small and go from there. Shouldn't be very much out of pocket expense. More of a time issue.

Also need a few photo boxes built exactly to the same spec, to be shipped around the country with instructions/specs on how to shoot cans.

Cones would be a good start and who knows, maybe it could grow with every can from every state!

Ed

Great Idea Ed. I will definately be available to help with anything needed with a project like this. This is something I have had in the back of my head for a long time now, but just the scope of such a task like this has kept me from starting. I spoke with Kevin Lilek a little and he said (from his experience) the best way to start is with as complete a list as possible, whether it is just one state or all states. The additions will come but at least you have a starting point.
If you remember a few years back the Lew. brothers were working on a composite of all known variations of flats and cones. I believe this was for the BCCA but I can not be sure about that. Anyway, they were asking for information and I offered to look for variations in my collection. This was just about the time they decided to sell off their stuff, so I never got to get the information back to them. I have no idea if anyone took over their work on this but I assume not since I have never heard of it again.
They did however send me a copy of the complete database and I still have it (flats & cones). This is a very detailed list, right down to canning codes. I sorted out all the cones into a separate database and have been checking every cone I get for variations. I have added many, many cans to the data base and I believe I have the most complete comprehensive list there is. There are also many cones variations I have seen (on ebay) and heard about but don't add these to the list until I am physically able to verify the variation exists. So I know this database is far from complete but it could be a start.
Before we use this list I think it should be checked out to make sure this is not proprietary information to the BCCA, so please do not ask me to send to out to anyone until we are sure we can do so.
So let me know what you think and how we can procede from here.

Jim

Jim - I was doing the same thing with the Lewandowski list. I'll bring mine to KC.

Phil

Unfortunately I won't be at K.C. this year. But it is interesting you had the Lew. list also. Maybe there are a few more out there who have it updated and together could be a pretty decent list. I also believe I have another Blatz variation for you. My cans are packed from my recent move so I can't send a pic. I believe it is a variation of USBC 153-22. Location of "pats." on the side panel.

Jim

I also have the list but haven't made any updates to it. I use it more as a reference since I just don't have the time to do much else with it. Randy K has made corrections/additions to the Michigan section.

Steve