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OSAS, The Whole Story

A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

If you follow our “Ask a Bible Teacher” feature, you know how many comments I’ve received lately that question the Doctrine of Eternal Security (aka Once Saved Always Saved or OSAS). Based on their content I’ve concluded that many people neither understand OSAS nor have they considered the alternative.

Let’s Begin At The Beginning

It’s time to set the record straight once and for all. What does it take to be saved? I think the best answer to that question is the one the Lord gave in John 6:28-29.

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Here was a perfect opportunity to list all the things we have to do to meet God’s requirements. Jesus could have rattled off the 10 commandments. He could have repeated the Sermon on the Mount. He could have listed any number of admonitions and restrictions necessary to achieve and maintain God’s expectations of us. But what did He say? “Believe in the one He has sent.” Period. It was a repeat of John 3:16, confirming that belief in the Son is the one and only requirement for salvation.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A few verses later in John 6 He said that this wasn’t just His idea, as if that wouldn’t be enough, but that His Father was in complete agreement. And not only would our belief suffice to provide us with eternal life, but that it was God’s will that Jesus lose none of those who believe. You and I have been known to disobey God’s will, but has Jesus ever done so? And isn’t He the one who’s been charged with the responsibility for keeping us? Let’s read it.

“For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:38-40)

Just in case we missed this promise, Jesus made it again even more clearly in John 10:28-30. “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” The Father and the Son have both accepted responsibility for our security. Once we’re in Their hands, no one can get us away.

I have purposely only used words straight from the Lord’s own mouth to make this case because I can already hear the choruses of “Yes Buts” mounting as those who refuse to take them at face value get ready to trot out their favorite verses denying Eternal Security, misinterpreted though they are.

The one characteristic of God’s that gives us the most comfort is knowing that He can’t lie or change His mind or contradict Himself. He can’t say something in one place and then say something entirely different in another. He’s consistent. If He says that we’re saved solely because of our belief in Him, and that He’s accepted responsibility for keeping us so, then we can count on that. As we’ll see, anything in the Bible that seems to contradict these simple, straightforward statements has to be talking about something else.

But first, since He puts so much emphasis on belief, let’s take a closer look at that word. What does He mean when He says “believe”? It must be more than just a casual thing because reliable statistics show, for example, that 85% of those who come forward to “receive the Lord” at a crusade or other evangelistic outreach never form any connection with a church or Bible Study or in any other way demonstrate a relationship with the Lord afterward.

And Jesus spoke of the seed that fell on rocky places. He said, “This is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.” (Matt. 13:20-21) If these people were saved and then fell away, all His promises above have been broken. There must be more. So what does it mean to believe?

The Greek word for believe is “pistis.” According the Strong’s Concordance, it’s a “conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervor born of faith and joined with it.” In connection with the Lord Jesus, it means “a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God.”

The Apostle Paul gave us valuable insight into the nature of this belief. He wrote, If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

This isn’t just some intellectual thing that carries us away on the words of a captivating speaker, only to leave us flat a short time later. It’s a conviction that’s formed deep in our heart, the realization that Jesus is not just a man. He’s the Lord Himself, and He took upon Himself the penalty due us for our sins, which is death. And to prove that God counted His death as sufficient, He raised Jesus from the dead to be seated beside Him in the Heavenly realms. (Ephes. 1:20) Since God can’t dwell in the presence of sin, and since the wages of sin is death, every one of our sins has to have been paid for. If even one remained unpaid, Jesus would still be in the grave. We have to believe that Jesus rose from the grave in order to believe that we will.

It’s that kind of belief that gets you saved and keeps you that way, because it sets in motion a chain of events that’s irreversible. There are four links in this chain. You supply two and the Lord supplies two. You hear and believe, and the Lord marks and guarantees.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

The word translated “deposit” is a legal term. Today we would say Earnest Money. It’s a down payment that constitutes a legal obligation to follow through with the purchase. If you’ve ever bought any Real Estate, you’re familiar with the term. If not, here’s another example. It’s like we’ve been put on “lay away.” The price has been paid and we’ve been taken off the display shelf until the one who has purchased us returns to claim us. In the mean time we cannot be bought by anyone else, because we legally belong to the one who has paid the deposit. “You are not your own,” we’re told. “You were bought with a price.” (1 Cor. 6:19-20)

All of this happened at our first moment of belief, before we could do anything to either earn or lose our position. The man on the cross beside Jesus is the prototype for this transaction. Having done something bad enough to get himself executed, he was promised a place in Paradise solely because he believed in his heart that Jesus was the Lord of a coming Kingdom.

Paul made it even clearer when he repeated this incredible promise in 2 Cor. 1:21-22. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

This time He removed all doubt as to just Who it is that keeps us saved. Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. What could be clearer?
Union And Fellowship

If the Doctrine of Eternal Security is so clear then why all the disagreement about it? I’ve found two reasons. The first is the two-sided nature of our relationship with the Lord. One side is called Union and is Eternal and Unconditional, based only on our belief. Ephesians 1:13-14 describes our Union with God, sealed and guaranteed. Once we’re born again, we can’t become unborn. It’s good forever. The Holy Spirit is sealed within us from our first moment of belief until the day of redemption.

The other side is called Fellowship and it’s a bit more complicated. Fellowship is that state of continual closeness to God that enables Him to bless us in our daily lives, by making things happen for us and protecting us from attack. It’s like He’s teamed up with us to give us a supernatural advantage. Fellowship is defined by 1 John 1:8-9 as being both Earthly and conditional upon our behavior. Even as believers, as long as we’re here on Earth we’ll continue to sin. Since God can’t abide in the presence of sin, our unconfessed sins interrupt our Earthly relationship with Him and may deprive us of blessings we might have otherwise received. We’re still saved in the eternal sense, but out of Fellowship here on Earth.

When we’re out of Fellowship, we’re legitimate targets for our enemy’s mischief, just like Job was. His sin was self-righteousness and because he wouldn’t confess it, God had to let Satan afflict him in order to bring him to his senses. For a New Testament illustration, look at the parable of the Prodigal Son. (Luke 15:11-32) Like the younger son, we’ll still belong to our Father’s family, but won’t receive any of its blessings while we’re out of Fellowship. And like both Job and the Prodigal, when we return to our Father and confess our sins, we’re immediately purified from all unrighteousness and restored to Fellowship.

One reason that many Christians live such defeated lives is that having only learned about the Union part of being a believer, they only know that God has forgiven their sins and that they’ll go to be with Him when they die or are Raptured. They don’t realize that they still need to confess every time they sin to stay in Fellowship. And so, being deprived of God’s providence, they may become discouraged and even stop praying and attending church. Other believers, who don’t understand the dual relationship either, look at the mess they’re in and think they must have lost their salvation. Like Job’s friends, they look in God’s Word for confirmation, and by taking verses out of context, believe they have found the proof.

Union and Fellowship are not just New Testament ideas. In the Old Testament, even when Israel was being obedient in thought and action, doing their best to please God, the priests still had to sacrifice a lamb on the altar every morning and every evening for the sins of the people. 1 John 1:9 is the New Testament equivalent of those daily sacrifices for sin. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. It was written for believers who are already saved, but are in danger of being out of Fellowship because of their sins.
The Gift And the Prize

The other reason people get confused is that there are two types of benefits in Eternity. The first is the free Gift called Salvation that’s given to all who ask in faith irrespective of merit and guarantees our admission into the Kingdom. Ephesians 2:8-9 is the model, saying that salvation is a Gift from God.

The second consists of Heavenly rewards we can earn for the things we do as believers here on Earth. Philippians 3:13-14 are good verses for explaining this. Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. In addition to the Gift, there’s a Prize.

A gift is something given out of love, irrespective of merit, and is never taken back. A prize, on the other hand, is something we qualify for and earn. And if we’re not careful we can lose it. (Rev. 3:11) Paul had already received the Gift of salvation, it was behind him. Now he was focused on winning the Prize as well.

In 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 he explained the difference in greater detail. Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

No Olympic athlete was satisfied just to have qualified to participate in the games. Everyone wanted to win the victor’s crown. Likewise, we shouldn’t be satisfied just to have received the Gift of salvation. We must now live our lives as believers in such a way as to win the Prize as well.

The Bible calls some of these prizes crowns, and while the athlete’s crown soon wilted away (it was a wreath of ivy) the crowns believers can win last forever. They’re worth making some sacrifices for. That’s why Paul said, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. (1 Cor. 9:27) The crowns are identified as the Everlasting Crown (Victory) in 1 Cor 9:25, Crown of the Soul Winner in Phil 4:1 and 1 Thes 2:19, Crown of Righteousness in 2 Tim 4:8, Crown of Life in Jas 1:12 and Rev 2:10, and the Crown of Glory in 1 Peter 5:4.

The difference between the Gift and the Prize is also seen in 1 Cor. 3:12-15. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

At the judgment of believers, the quality of our work on earth will be tested by fire. Only work that survives the test will bring us a reward. But notice that even if all our work is destroyed in the fire, we’ll still have our salvation. Why? Because it’s a free Gift, given out of love, irrespective of merit.

The Lord mentioned other rewards as well. In Matt. 6:19-21 He advised us, “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

There are things we can do as believers while here on Earth that will cause deposits to be made to our heavenly account. Some believe that this passage refers to the way we use the money we’re given. Do we use it to enrich ourselves, stacking up possessions that far exceed our needs? Or do we use it to further the work of the Kingdom? Here’s a hint. Our tithe is what we owe to God. It’s what we do with the money we have left that really counts. And with the measure we use, it will be measured to us. (Luke 6:38)

To summarize, in the New Testament there are verses like Ephesians 1:13-14 that talk about Union. There are verses like 1 John 1: 8-9 that talk about Fellowship. There are verses like Ephesians 2:8-9 that talk about the Gift and there are verses like 1 Cor 9:24-27 that talk about the Prize.

Those that stress belief, explain the permanent nature of our bond with God, and are directed toward eternity are Union verses. Those that involve grace and faith are Gift verses. Those that require work and are directed at the quality of our lives on Earth are Fellowship verses, and those that require work and involve eternal rewards are Prize verses.

When you view Scripture from this perspective, all of the apparent contradictions disappear and you no longer have to wonder why God seems to be saying one thing here and something different there. The issue becomes one of correctly identifying the focal point of the particular passage you’re looking at. Determine the context by reading verses around it, and assign it to one of the four categories.
Give Us An Example

Hebrews 6:4-6 is a passage often cited in opposition to Eternal Security. The entire letter is to Jewish believers who are being enticed back into keeping the Law, so the context is New Covenant vs. Old. And in verse 9 the writer hints that he’s been talking about things that accompany salvation. That tells us that verses 4-6 are not related to salvation but things that accompany it. More importantly the idea that a believer could do something to irretrievably lose his salvation is in direct contradiction to the very clear promise that the Holy Spirit is sealed within us from the very first moment of belief until the day of redemption.

So what could these believers be in danger of falling away from due to their sins? Fellowship. And what could prevent them from being restored? The practice of Old Covenant remedies for sin rather than invoking 1 John 1:9. They’d be relegating the death of the Lord to the same status as that of the twice-daily lamb. The Law was only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. Once the Reality appeared, the shadow was no longer effective. And what would be their penalty? Living a defeated life, bearing no fruit, all their works burned in the judgment of 1 Cor. 3. But still saved? Yes. Hebrews 6:4-6 is a Fellowship passage.
Suppose There Is No Security?

In closing, let’s look at the alternative. What are we faced with? If Hebrews 6:4-6 for example applies to our salvation then if we ever sin after being saved we’ll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. The New Covenant would be worse than the Old, not better. They were condemned for their actions. According to Matt. 5 we’d be condemned for our thoughts. They couldn’t murder. We couldn’t even be angry. They couldn’t commit adultery. We couldn’t even have a lustful thought. Think of it. No anger, ever. No lust, ever. No envy, ever. No idolatry, ever. No favoritism or discrimination, ever. No impure thoughts or deeds of any kind, ever. Is this the Good News, the incomparable riches of His Grace? Did God become man and die the most painful death ever devised only to put His children into an even more untenable position than before? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? I can’t believe so.

Some take a more moderate view of this saying that God would never take back the gift of salvation, but that we can return it. To justify this position they have to put words in the Lord’s mouth. When He says in John 10:28, “No one can snatch them out of my hand,” they have to insert the phrase “but us” after “no one”. Same with Romans 8:38-39.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. They have to insert the phrase “but us” after “in all creation”.

None of this defense of Eternal Security is intended to condone sin. As an indication of our gratitude for the gift of salvation, believers are continually admonished in Scripture to live our lives in a manner pleasing to God. Not to earn or keep it, but to thank the Lord for giving it to us. And to help us do that, the Holy Spirit has come to dwell in us to guide and direct us, and to pray for us. Since the Spirit of God lives in us we are no longer controlled by the sin nature and can choose to please God by the way we live. And even though we do this out of gratitude for the Gift He’s already given, which is Union with Him, He blesses us both here on Earth (Fellowship) and in Eternity (the Prize).

http://gracethrufaith.com/selah/eternal-security/osas-the-whole-story/

To me it all boils down to this......either you believe that Jesus is the Savior for your ETERNAL salvation and that His sacrifice on the cross was and is a completed/finished work or you don't. To suggest that Jesus' sacrifice and gift to us isn't sufficient is denying His ability to save to the utmost.

If you don't know then make sure. The word states to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith. Once you've made that determination then you are entitled to the assurance that the scriptures teach.

BELIEVING is the key.

Once you receive salvation through the saving gift of grace and the measure of faith that is distributed to each saint then you can rejoice and live for Him out of love and not fear.

Some will be saved as by fire only - others will have rewards. Our works (after salvation) will be the determining factor.

Once you understand that the old man died (crucified with Christ - which was accomplished ONCE, for all of eternity) and that we are raised together with Him in newness of life, then you should claim the assurance and confidence the Bible teaches rather than live in a miserable condition filled with doubts, fear, and a joyless up and down (doubting in unbelief) walk.

Again, BELIEVING is the key. If doubts remain, then study to see if you are approved of God (through Jesus' work, not yours) - rightly dividing the word of truth.

Finally, know that as the first Adam died with Jesus on the cross, know also that the second Adam (the new birth) is alive forevermore with Jesus. A spiritual, eternally alive birth which can never die proven through the resurrection of Jesus.

Again, the new man is alive forevermore.

God bless.

Email: sweetbyandbyx2@yahoo.com

THE BELIEVER'S STANDING AND STATE

A distinction of vast importance to the right understanding of the Scriptures, especially of the Epistles, is that which concerns the standing or position of the believer, and his state, or walk. The first is the result of the work of Christ and is perfect and entire from the very moment that Christ is received by faith. Nothing in the afterlife of the believer adds in the smallest degree to his title of favor with God, nor to his perfect security. Through faith alone this standing before God is conferred, and before Him the weakest person, if he be but a true believer on the Lord Jesus Christ, has precisely the same title as the most illustrious saint.

What that title or standing is, may be briefly seen from the following Scriptures:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12).

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (I John 5:1).

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:17).

"To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" 0 Pet. 1:4-5).

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance" (Eph. 1: 11).

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God; and it doth not ye appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear,
we shall be like him" (I John 3:2).

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation" (I Pet. 2:9).

"Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father" (Rev. 1:5-6).

"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power" (Col. 2: 10).

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Rom. 5:1-2).

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life" (I John 5:13).

"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus" (Heb. 10: 19).

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all- spiritual blessings" (Eph. 1:3).

"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6).

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved), and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:4-6).

"But now, in Christ Jesus, ye who sometime were far off, are made nigh by the blood of Chfist" (Eph. 2:13).

"In whom also, after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" (Eph. 1: 13).

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body" (I Cor. 12:13).

"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones" (Eph. 5:30).

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost?" (I Cor. 6:19).


Every one of these marvelous things is true of every believer on the Lord Jesus Christ. Not one item in this glorious inventory is said to be gained by prayer, or diligence in service, or churchgoing, or alms- giving, or self-denial, or holiness of life, or by any other description of good works. All are gifts of God through Christ and therefore belong equally to all believers. When the jailor of Philippi believed on the Lord Jesus Christ he became at once a child of God, a joint heir with Christ, a king and priest, and had the title to the incorruptible, undefiled, and unfading inheritance. In the instant that he believed with his heart and confessed with his mouth that Jesus was his Lord, he was justified from all things, had peace with God, a standing in His grace, and a sure hope of glory. He received the gift of eternal life, was made accepted in the full measure of Christ's own acceptance, was indwelt by, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, by whom also he was baptized into the mystical body of Christ- the church of God. Instantly he was clothed with the righteousness of God (Rom. 3:22), quickened with Christ, raised with Him, and in Him seated in the heavenlies.

What his actual state may have been is quite another mattercertainly it was far, far below his exalted standing in the sight of God. It was not all at once that he became as royal, priestly, and heavenly in walk as he was at once in standing. The following passages will indicate the way one's standing and one's state are constantly discriminated in the Scriptures.

STANDING

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus . . . I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ that in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 1:2-9).

"But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (I Cor. 6:11).

"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?" (I Cor. 6:15).

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 16:17).

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Col. 1: 12-13).

STATE

"For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you" (I Cor. 1:11).

"And 1, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal . . . For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" (I Cor. 3:1-3).

"Now some are puffed up" (I Cor. 4:18).

"And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you" (I Cor. 5:2).

"Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another" (I Cor. 6:7).

"Shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot?" (I Cor. 6:15).

"But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou art an offence unto me; for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matt. 16:23).

"But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds" (Col. 3:8-9).

The student cannot fail to notice that the divine order, under grace, is first to give the highest possible standing and then to exhort the believer to maintain a state in accordance therewith. The beggar is lifted up from the dung-hill and set among princes (I Sam. 2:8), and then exhorted to be princely. As examples, see the following verses.

STANDING

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed" (Rom. 6:6).

"Ye are the light of the world" (Matt. 5:14).

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim. 1:9).

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6).

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col. 3:4).

"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord" (Eph. 5:8).

"Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness" (I Thess. 5:5).

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him" (I Thess. 5:9-10).

"By the which will we are sanctified, through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Heb. 10:10).

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us . . . sanctification" (I Cor. 1:30).

"For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified" (Heb. 10:14).

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded" (Phil. 3:15).

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world" (I John 4:17).

STATE

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances?" (Col. 2:20).

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:16).

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil. 2:12). (Let it be observed, in reading this much-abused text, that the salvation spoken of here is not that of the soul, but salvation out of the snares which would hinder the Christian from doing the will of God.)

"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God" (Col. 3: 1).

"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth" (Col. 3:5).

"Walk as children of light" (Eph. 5:8).

"Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober" (I Thess. 5:6).

"Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do" (I Thess. 5:11).

"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17).

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly" (I Thess. 5:23).

"Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect" (Phil. 3:12).

"Therefore, leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection" (Heb. 6: 1).

"He that saith he abideth in him, ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (I John 2:6).

The student will be able to add largely to this list of comparative passages showing that the Scripture makes a clear distinction between the standing and state of the believer. It will be seen that he is not under probation to see if he is worthy of an inconceivably exalted position, but, beginning with the confession of his utter unworthiness, receives the position wholly as the result of Christ's work. Positionally he is "perfected forever" (Heb. 10: 14), but looking within, at his state, he must say, "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect" (Phil. 3:12).

It may be said that all the afterwork of God in his behalf, the application of the Word to his walk and conscience (John 17:17; Eph. 5:26), the chastisements of the Father's hand (Heb. 12:10; 1 Cor. 11:32), the ministry of the Spirit (Eph. 4:11-12), all the difficulties and trials of the wilderness way (I Pet. 4:12-14), and the final transformation when He shall appear (I John 3:2), all are intended simply to bring the believer's character into perfect conformity to the position which is his in the instant of his conversion. He grows in grace, indeed, but not into grace.

A prince, while he is a little child, is presumably as willful and as ignorant as other little children. Sometimes he may be very obedient and teachable and affectionate, and then he is happy and approved; at other times he may be unruly, self-willed, and disobedient, and then he is unhappy and perhaps is chastised. But he is just as much a prince on the one day as on the other. It may be hoped that, as time goes on, he will learn to bring himself into willing and affectionate subjection to every right way, and then he will be more princely, but not more really a prince. He was born a prince.

In the case of every true son of the King of kings, and Lord of lords, this growth into kingliness is assured. In the end, standing and state, character and position, will be equal. But the position is not the reward of the perfected character-the character is developed from the position.

http://www.biblebelievers.com/scofield/scofield_rightly08.html

Email: sweetbyandbyx2@yahoo.com

THE BELIEVER'S TWO NATURES
The Scriptures teach that every regenerate person is the possessor of two natures: one, received by natural birth, which is wholly and hopelessly bad; and a new nature, received through the new birth, which is the nature of God Himself, and therefore wholly good.

The following Scriptures will sufficiently manifest what God thinks of the old, or Adam nature: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5).

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9)

"There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one" (Rom. 3:10-12).

God does not say that none of the unregenerate are refined, or cultured, or able, or sweet-tempered, or generous, or charitable, or even religious. But He does say that none are righteous, none understand God, or seek after Him.

It is one of the sorest of faith's trials to accept the divine estimate of human nature, to realize that our genial and moral friends, who, not infrequently, are scrupulous in the discharge of every duty, filled with sympathy for the woes and the aspirations of humanity, and strenuous in the assertion of human rights, are yet utter despisers of God's rights and untouched by the sacrifice of His Son, whose divinity they with unspeakable insolence deny and whose word they contemptuously reject. A refined and gentle lady who would shrink with horror from the coarseness of giving a fellow creature the lie, will yet make God a liar every day! (See I John 1:10; 5:10). And this difficulty is vastly increased for thousands by the current praise of humanity from the pulpit.

How startling the contrast between appearances and realities in the time before the flood. "There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown" (Gen. 6:4).

And so it appeared that the world was growing better, in men's eyes; a continual improvement they probably would trace, and the apparent result of the unholy intermarriage of the godly with the worldly was the lifting up of human nature to still grander heights.

But "God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Gen. 6:5).

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile man" (Mark 7:21-23).

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7-8).

"Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3).

By these it appears that the unconverted man has a three-fold incapacity. He may be gifted, or cultured, or amiable, or generous, or religious. He may pay his honest debts, be truthful, industrious, a good husband and father-or all these together-but he can neither obey God, please God, nor understand God.

The believer, on the contrary, while still having his old nature, unchanged and unchangeable, has received a new nature which "after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." The following Scriptures will show the origin and character of the new man.

It will be seen that regeneration is a creation, not a mere transformation-the bringing in a new thing, not the change of an old. As we received human nature by natural generation, so do we receive the divine nature by regeneration.

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee [Nicodemus, a moral, religious man], Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:26).

It will be observed what bearing these Scriptures have upon that specious and plausible, but utterly unscriptural phrase so popular in our day, "the universal fatherhood of God, and the universal brotherhood of man -- an expression all the more dangerous for the half-truth of the last clause. Not all who are born, but all who are born again are the children of God. The Scripture tells us indeed that Adam was the son of God, but it is also careful to state that Seth was the son of Adam (Luke 3:38).

"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [literally, a new creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor. 5:17).

And this "new man" is linked with Christ. "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not 1, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27).

"For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col. 3:3-4).

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises; that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4).

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Rom. 8: 10).

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" (I John 5:11-12).

"But this new, divine nature, which is Christ's own, subsists in the believer together with the old nature. It is the same Paul who could say, "Yet not I, but Christ liveth in me," who also says, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh), dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7: 18); and, "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me (Rom. 7:21). It was Job, the perfect and upright man," who said, "I abhor myself." It was Daniel, eminently a man of God, who said, "My comeliness was turned in me into corruption," when he saw the glorified ancient of days.

Between these two natures there is conflict. Study carefully the battle between the two "I's": the old Saul and the new Paul in Romans 7:14-25. It is an experience like this which so discourages and perplexes young converts. The first joy of conversion has subsided, his glowing expectations become chilled, and the convert is dismayed to find the flesh with its old habits and desires within himself as before his conversion, and he is led to doubt his acceptance with God. This is a time of discouragement and danger. Paul in this crisis, cries out for deliverance, calling his old nature a "body of death." The law only intensifies his agony (though a converted man), and he finds deliverance from "the flesh," no through effort, nor through striving to keep the law, but "through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 7:24-25).

The presence of the flesh is not, however, an excuse for walking in it. We are taught that "our old man is crucified with Christ"; that, in that sense, we "are dead," and we are called upon to make this a constant experience by mortifying ("making dead") our members which are upon the earth.

The power for this is that of the Holy Spirit who dwells in every believer (I Cor. 6:19) and whose blessed office is to subdue the flesh. "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." (Gal. 5:16-17).

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, instead of meeting the solicitations of the old nature by force of will, or by good resolutions, turn the conflict over to the indwelling Spirit of God.

Romans 7 is a record of the conflict of regenerate man with his old self, and is, therefore, intensely personal. "I would," "I do not," "I would not," "I do," is the sad confession of defeat which finds an echo in so many Christian hearts. In chapter 8 the conflict still goes on, but how blessedly impersonal! There is no agony, for Paul is out of it; the conflict is now between "flesh"Saul of Tarsus-and the Holy Spirit. Paul is at peace and victorious. (It will be understood that this refers to victory over the flesh, such inward solicitations to evil as lust, pride, anger, etc.; temptations from without are met by recourse to Christ our high priest).

Consider attentively the following passages: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed [annulled, rendered powerless] that henceforth we should not serve sin" (Rom. 6:6).

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Phil. 3:3).

"For ye are dead [have died-in Christ], and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3).

"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6: 11).

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh to fulfil the lusts thereof' (Rom. 13:14).

"Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh" (Rom. 8:12).

http://www.biblebelievers.com/scofield/scofield_rightly07.html

Email: sweetbyandbyx2@yahoo.com

Josh and Judith thank you for your posts.
It is very much appreciated.

Check out the Hal on the hot seat for 6/1/10

http://www.hallindsey.com/

He talks about Eternal Salvation!! Now if we can't believe what Hal says, who can you believe?

Romans- 8 / 31-39
(New international Version)

31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Just like any parent, I just love my 3x children. In them I see a reflection of me, but each one is uniquely individual. Each one has their own personalties and dreams. They are my off spring, and in them they carry forward my name and my fore fathers line. When they go anywhere that life may take them, they go forward with my authority and blessings for they are mine. Period, they have that authority.

Our lives are a reflection of the Fathers love for us, but on such a weaker scale.

I have just finished reading a book titled “In the grip of grace” written by Max Lucado. In this book there is a story and at the end it says-

“Jesus loves us so much, that he would rather die than see us be alone”

These words really hammered home some basic truths to me. Our Father in heaven truly loves his children with a burning passion; we are simply his all that call upon his name.

In the days of old, if you were ordained by the king been either family or chosen you carried on your finger a ring. This ring was proof to all that you meet on your travels that you were from the king. With this ring you carried his blessing and could speak on his behalf. If you gave an order then it had to be followed, for the ring was as if the king had spoken this command. You were sealed with his authority.

We are his children sealed by his love and his Holy Spirit. We carry with us the authority of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. Simply speaking we are for ever his. Though we all travel out into the wilderness unknown by many, we carry inside us his ring. The fruits of the spirit speak forth on our behalf whom we belong too, we have assurance and authority in his name. But more than anything we go sealed with his love, his mercy and his grace.

And no matter how far we travel out into this world, how far away to the loneliest of places, the King sends with us his helper. He is with us. We have at our command not only his blessings and his guidance, but we have at our command an army of protection.

When our accuser points fingers at us and runs back to the King accusing us of treason, of failure and letting him down. The Father looks at our ring which was forged on Calvaries cross (Jesus), and says to our accuser that he only sees his Son, whom has no fault.

So like my children whom I love, there are times that they do wrong. There are times that they let me down as a father. But in no way do I ever condemn them, for I know who they are, I know where they come from. Instead I reach out to them in mercy and love remembering no more but only the love that I have for them since the beginning of their time.

They are mine and no one will ever take that away. EVER


In his saving love / ybiC Paul

http://www.hallindsey.com

I believe that when we come to a saving faith, we are saved 100% by His work. We are told to die to self and be born again. If we could lose our salvation, where is the scripture about Him resurrecting our old self to be moved back to?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

I also have prayed and studied about this issue a great deal. If it were possible that our deeds could undo His work, then where is the cut off point? God's justice is perfect. Out best works are as filthy rags.

We are eternally covered by His perfect righteousness and for that, we are eternally grateful.

Email: emilyriley24@twmi.rr.com

Questions That Are Harder Than the Answers
By Jack Kinsella

One of the most prevalent characteristics of Scripture is its simplicity. Indeed, it is addressed to ‘the simple'.

"The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple." (Psalms 19:7)

"The LORD preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me." (Psalms 116:6)

"When the scorner is punished, the simple is made wise: and when the wise is instructed, he receiveth knowledge." (Proverbs 21:11)

"Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him." (Proverbs 9:16)

Yet there are entire libraries filled with complicated volumes explaining the simplicity of the Scriptures. For every Scriptural doctrine there is somebody who has a revised doctrine they've managed to glean from the Scriptures that nobody else ever found.

Usually it is something that tends to complicate something that would be otherwise pretty simple. The doctrine of eternal security is a good example.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (Ephesians 2:5)

That is about as simple as it gets. The statement asks and answers all the questions necessary:

Q. How are we saved? A. By Grace. Q. How do we receive grace? A. By faith. Q. Where does it come from? A. From God. Q. What role do I play? A. I receive the gift.

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6)

This is also pretty simple. If I am saved by grace and works, then grace isn't grace anymore. It is grace plus works -- which nullifies both. If works count, then grace doesn't.

It cannot count. Grace comes from God. Works come from you. Are you judged according to your worthiness? Or Christ's? How can anybody be judged according to both?

"Well, Jesus was good enough. . . but you weren't. . . ."

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all." (Romans 4:16)

So simple a caveman could understand it. It is of "faith that by grace the promise might be sure" because if one relies on the combination of faith in God's grace and faith in one's own works, the promise is not sure.

Conversely, if I am relying on the combination of my faith in God's grace coupled with my own works, it is now up to me to judge whether I am good enough to go to heaven. (Or whether someone else is.)

"Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?" (1st Corinthians 10:29-30)

But if it is so simple, then why is eternal security derided as OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved)? I don't know, to tell you the truth. I've heard a lot of arguments but none that don't redefine the entire concept of grace in the process.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

As a question, Hebrews 6:4-6 is a hard one -- it says that if somebody is saved and then falls away, they have lost their salvation. Doesn't it?

Well, it does when judged against Paul's standard that either grace nullifies works or works nullifies grace.

It is impossible to renew someone to repentance because the Blood of Christ is sufficient payment for ALL sin. If it were not, then Christ would have to be crucified again and again, exposing Him to "an open shame" before His enemy.

Can that mean that a person who was saved and then fell away could never come back? He is lost forever and without hope, no matter how much he later begs for forgiveness?

That all depends on how one defines the word impossible. If you define it as meaning "maybe" then Hebrews 6:4-6 contradicts eternal security.

If you define it as meaning impossible then it can only mean that it is impossible to lose one's salvation by one's own works, since it would expose Christ to ridicule before the enemy He claimed to have defeated.

As a question, the Book of James seems kind of difficult. James writes;

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. . ." (James 2:18)

"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:19)

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24)

This may sound scandalous to some, but hang on. All of the Bible is written for us, but not all of it was written to us. That is part of the whole process of ‘rightly dividing' the Word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

The Old Testament was written for all mankind, but written directly to the Jews. There are doctrines in the Old Testament that do not apply to Christians.

The New Testament is a collection of 27 letters, or books, divided according to their intended audiences.

The four Gospels speak of it in the future tense, but during the Gospel period, there was no Church, no Christians and no Great Commission.

The second division is the Book of Acts. During this time, the New Testament Church was born, people began to get saved, the Gospel began to be preached, churches started to spring up.

After the churches are established come the Epistles (letters) to the various churches of the Gentile world. The Pauline Epistles are written to the Gentiles unfamiliar with the Law of Moses.

The books of Peter, Hebrews, James and Jude are primarily addressed to converted Jews that are already steeped in the Mosaic Law. The Mosiac Law emphasized works.

The Gospels make reference to flight on the Sabbath Day -- but the Sabbath Day restrictions apply to Jews, not the Church. Peter makes reference the Mosaic Law on unclean animals. (Acts 11:8)

James is addressing grace versus works to people steeped from birth in the traditions of the Mosiac Law. James wasn't equating works with salvation, he was equating works with fruit.

Abraham was justified by the ‘work' of believing God, not sacrificing Isaac. His faith was ‘made perfect' by God's grace in providing an alternative sacrifice.

Rahab was justified by faith that if she helped the spies they would spare her. By her works, the Israelites were saved from defeat at Jericho. Her faith was ‘made perfect' when the Israelites kept their promise.

We are saved by our faith that the Blood of Jesus Christ is sufficient to cleanse us from all sin and that He has already kept His Promise.

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" -(James 2:22)

James doesn't equate works with salvation, he equates it with faith. I'm assuming we're all Christians here. I'm also assuming we've had similar experiences. (Assuming can be problematic, but I'm taking a long chance.)

Is your faith sometimes stronger than it is other times? I admit that mine is. There are moments when I'm ready to charge hell with a bucket of ice water and times when I wonder how a dirtbag like me could ever be saved.

Think about it. Do you ever find your faith wavering, even for a few moments? Think about the circumstances when it does.

I bet you will find some relationship between how strong your faith is and what ‘works' you happen to be engaging in at the time.

Salvation and faith are not the same. We are sometimes more faithful than other times, but there is no time when we are more or less saved.

We tend to view our lives in the moment -- we view where we are at that moment as determining where we stand with God. To some degree, that is true, since all any of us has is this moment.

But while we see our lives in momentary slices, God exists outside of time and space. We can only see to the next horizon, God looks down at us in our totality. God either sees the Shed Blood of Christ or He does not.

Our faith is demonstrated by our works, and our works play an important role in how faithful we are, but salvation comes by grace through faith [and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast.] (Ephesians 2:8-9)

There are those who say that the doctrine of eternal security is a license to sin. The fact is that man doesn't need a license to sin. Sin is what man does.

The most simple theme of Scripture, the one for which there is the least objection, is the theme that man is incapable of living a sinless life on his own.

Man is incapable of good works.

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9)

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Romans 3:12)

As Christians, we are enjoined to live a Christ-like life because we are saved, not in order to become saved or in order to remain saved.

"But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God."

Don't let the enemy steal your victory. You are worthy to carry the banner because He has made you worthy.

Is your faith weak? Go out there and get into the fight.

"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philippians 1:6)

Maranatha!

http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=6812

Email: sweetbyandbyx2@yahoo.com

THAT says so MUCH . . . love it!!!

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

See, our faith makes us righteous, not trying our best to stop sinning. In every age men have been saved by doing what God commanded them to do then. Now He tells us to do nothing, but simply to trust in Christ, who died for our sins. This is God's plan of salvation.

. . Oh, Thank You, Father for giving all You could give, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as the only WAY, TRUTH, AND LIFE . . JESUS paying a debt we could never pay .

. . the narrow Path is offered to the sinner who receives the Son with a contrite heart, amen!! Yes, yes, yes, Father's Way is a most powerful Truth for the saved through Jesus Christ in the power of the HOLY SPIRIT.

OSAS And 1 Timothy 4

Q. In 1 Timothy 4:1, it says that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith. Some teachers that I listen to believe this is proof that true believers can walk away from their faith and lose their salvation. Then they mention the perseverance of the saints. I believe that if you are a true believer that you will persevere even though you will not be perfect and will still sin.


A. These teachers have it backwards. The fact that they depart means they were never saved. Speaking of people like this, John said, “They went out from us but they did not really belong to us, for if they had belonged to us they would have remained with us. But their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” (1 John 2:19)

There are numerous other verses in the New Testament that say a true believer can not depart from the faith. For example, Jesus said that He would lose none of all the Father had given Him (John 6:39) and that no one could snatch us out of his hand (John 10:28). Paul said that at the moment of our belief we were sealed with the Holy Spirit to guarantee our inheritance (Ephes. 1:13-14) and at that time God Himself took ownership of us and makes us stand (2 Cor. 1:21-22). I could give several more references but I think you get the point. The correct interpretation of 1 Tim. 4:1 is that those who depart were never believers.

This is my first time to post here at RITA. Thanks!

I agree that OSAS is true. Christians are secured in their salvation for eternity. Otherwise Christ's Sacrifice would be questioned. But I disagree with the notion that all Christians are assured of entering the Kingdom of Christ.

Eternal salvation is one thing. But entrance into the coming Kingdom is another. Take for example Hebrews 6:4-6: "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." This passage is addressed to Christians (see also 3:1). Therefore, it is very much possible for Christians to fall away from the faith. As a matter of fact, many Christians -- who are assured of eternal salvation -- have fallen away, that is, APOSTATIZED. Does this mean they have lost their salvation? Of course not! What they have forfeited is their inheritance in the coming Kingdom, just like what Esau did, Hebrews 12:16,17 (which i a warning to Christians).

To put it another way, the salvation that we Christians have received is the salvation of the spirit, John 3:6, which will never be taken away from us (OSAS). But the salvation of our SOULS is yet to be realized in the future at the Judgment Seat of Christ immediately after the pretrib Rapture, Matthew 16:24-27, Hebrews 10:38,39, 1 Peter 1:9, James 1:21, John 12:25,26, etc. It is possible for our souls to not be saved, and in fact the Bible indicates that the majority of end-time Christians will fail in this area of salvation, 1 Corinthians 9:24 - 10:12.

Email: egayrapture@yahoo.com

What? That is some wild teaching - new to my ears anyway.

Couldn't disagree more.

Edgardo, it would seem that you are operating with a spirit of confusion according to your statements concerning spirit only salvation, interpretation of Heb. 6:4-6 and most other verses you used out of context.

I highly recommend you read the articles at the beginning of this thread by Jack Kelly and Judith's postings from Biblebelievers.com, and allow the Spirit of truth to enlighten your understanding.

Tom

Email: tparbar@gmail.com

Yes Edgardo, you are misinterpreting God's word on this one. That verse is used by all Conditional Security believers. Jack Kelly explained here:

Give Us An Example
Hebrews 6:4-6 is a passage often cited in opposition to Eternal Security. The entire letter is to Jewish believers who are being enticed back into keeping the Law, so the context is New Covenant vs. Old. And in verse 9 the writer hints that he’s been talking about things that accompany salvation. That tells us that verses 4-6 are not related to salvation but things that accompany it. More importantly the idea that a believer could do something to irretrievably lose his salvation is in direct contradiction to the very clear promise that the Holy Spirit is sealed within us from the very first moment of belief until the day of redemption.

So what could these believers be in danger of falling away from due to their sins? Fellowship. And what could prevent them from being restored? The practice of Old Covenant remedies for sin rather than invoking 1 John 1:9. They’d be relegating the death of the Lord to the same status as that of the twice-daily lamb. The Law was only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves. Once the Reality appeared, the shadow was no longer effective. And what would be their penalty? Living a defeated life, bearing no fruit, all their works burned in the judgment of 1 Cor. 3. But still saved? Yes. Hebrews 6:4-6 is a Fellowship passage.

Suppose There Is No Security?
In closing, let’s look at the alternative. What are we faced with? If Hebrews 6:4-6 for example applies to our salvation then if we ever sin after being saved we’ll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. The New Covenant would be worse than the Old, not better. They were condemned for their actions. According to Matt. 5 we’d be condemned for our thoughts. They couldn’t murder. We couldn’t even be angry. They couldn’t commit adultery. We couldn’t even have a lustful thought. Think of it. No anger, ever. No lust, ever. No envy, ever. No idolatry, ever. No favoritism or discrimination, ever. No impure thoughts or deeds of any kind, ever. Is this the Good News, the incomparable riches of His Grace? Did God become man and die the most painful death ever devised only to put His children into an even more untenable position than before? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? I can’t believe so.

Some take a more moderate view of this saying that God would never take back the gift of salvation, but that we can return it. To justify this position they have to put words in the Lord’s mouth. When He says in John 10:28, “No one can snatch them out of my hand,” they have to insert the phrase “but us” after “no one”. Same with Romans 8:38-39.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. They have to insert the phrase “but us” after “in all creation”.

None of this defense of Eternal Security is intended to condone sin. As an indication of our gratitude for the gift of salvation, believers are continually admonished in Scripture to live our lives in a manner pleasing to God. Not to earn or keep it, but to thank the Lord for giving it to us. And to help us do that, the Holy Spirit has come to dwell in us to guide and direct us, and to pray for us. Since the Spirit of God lives in us we are no longer controlled by the sin nature and can choose to please God by the way we live. And even though we do this out of gratitude for the Gift He’s already given, which is Union with Him, He blesses us both here on Earth (Fellowship) and in Eternity (the Prize). Selah 10-07-06

All who know Christ Jesus and are spirit-filled, blood-bought, made new creations in Him are destined for God's glorious Kingdom.

And if we know the Son, our blessed Risen Savior, we rejoice in the Gospel Truth not meant to be complicated. Jesus Himself saying, even a child can understand His Truth of Saving Mercy.

Yes, yes, not by our works, God's Holy Truth, simple profound, and everlasting is a Gift .

Be exalted LORD GOD, and bless Your children because of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ sent and abiding . . what Grace!.

In a sense conditional-salvation believers are correct, in that MILLENNIAL SALVATION IS INDEED CONDITIONAL.

Are there not contingent scriptures in the New Testament? Here's one: "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable in his sight: IF YE CONTINUE IN THE FAITH GROUNDED AND SETTLED, AND BE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister" (Colossians 1:21-23). Such conditional salvation scriptures are talking about FUTURE salvation, not about the salvation that we have received in the past. In other words, the salvation of the soul which is the central topic of the epistles (I have cited some references above). Soul salvation has to do with the millennial (1000 years) reign of Christ to be established at His coming (see Matthew 16:24-27). NOT ALL CHRISTIANS will reign with Christ! One proof of this is Revelation 2 and 3; only the overcomers will be rewarded with rulership with Christ.

OSAS has to do with eternal verities. But soul salvation has to do with MILLENNIAL (Kingdom) verities.

I have written a 13-page article that will explain more. If you are interested just email me. Title is, "Warning to Christians: TEARS IN HEAVEN!!!(Future)."

Email: egayrapture@yahoo.com

The above is one of the most confusing of I've heard .

. . the church will be WITH JESUS complete, and raptured, glorifed, body, soul and spirit before His reign as King of kings during the Millennial (Kingdom) on earth . . . We are His princes and princesses . . during the Millennial (Kingdom) .

My statement (quoted by Donna) is confusing to many because they take it for granted that eternal salvation given to Christians is an "automatic pass" into the millennial Kingdom of Christ. Nothing is further from the truth! Eternal life is given by grace through faith, no works by man is required. BUT, entry into the said Kingdom requires a believer to merit it by producing WORKS emanating from faith. Thus, James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise [in addition to Abraham's example of works] also was not Rahab the harlot JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James 2:24-26).

The book of James is a very misunderstood book (Martin Luther misunderstood it). Truth is, James is talking mainly about Salvation of the Soul (1:21). The salvation of the soul depends on justification by works. There is a justification by faith, and there is a justification by works. The former has to do with eternal salvation (gift), and the latter has to do with ENTRANCE INTO THE KINGDOM (reward). And MANY believers are not entering the Kingdom, Matthew 7:13,14;21-23; Luke 13:23-30, etc., etc.

Isn't that clear enough?

Email: egayrapture@yahoo.com

and where will the BELIEVERS be?

Edgardo, you are not discerning the scriptures correctly. Your eyes need to be opened to the truth of the gospel. There is only one requirement to get into heaven and that is do the will of the Father. The will of the Father is believe on his Son for forgiveness of ALL sin, past, present and future. Answer me this, how many of your sins did Jesus die on the cross for back then? So what do we lose out on when we sin? Rewards at the judgement seat (which is only for rewards of service) and fellowship while we're still here in these fleshly bodies.

If Jesus says that I am saved by believing in him, that means I will be in heaven with him forever and through the 7th day (millenium). I would restudy what you've learned...very dangerous false teaching. Check out www.gracethrufaith.com. Jack Kelly can answer any of your questions you may have.

Edgardo, what you are teaching is heresy. It is totally unbiblical doctrine and false. Your teachings are based in deception, twisting of scripture and whacko ideas of the kingdom of God, the millennium and soul salvation. There is no BUT after salvation by grace through faith.

Jesus Christ paid in FULL the price for our redemption from the penalty of sin and our guilty sentence of death and hell. All that have placed their faith in Him are saved to the utmost and are full and complete heirs to all of Gods kingdom rights and privileges. Your far out teaching of double talk, fear and innuendo is what cults are founded on and will not be tolerated here on RITA.

For starters, if you are at all teachable, study the doctrine of salvation found in the first 8 chapters of the book of Romans.

If you continue to try and teach this heresy, you will be banned from posting on RITA. The choice is yours. Choose wisely.

Tom

ps Look at Acts 13:38,39 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man(Jesus) is preached to you the forgiveness of sins;

And by Him everyone who believes is JUSTIFIED FROM ALL THINGS FROM WHICH YOU COULD NOT BE JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW OF MOSES.

Justified= just as if I never sinned.

Also verse 40 and 41

BEWARE therefore, lest what has been spoken in the prophets come upon you: "Behold, you despisers, marvel and perish; For I work a work in your days, a work which you will by no means believe, even though one were to declare it to you."

Email: tparbar@gmail.com

I'll add my 2 cents here.

I believe both positions are wrong.

It's an endless stalemate. The OSAS says that if a person walks away from God, that the person never was God's to begin with or was still saved.

The CD (Conditional Salvation), says that the person was saved and left his salvation behind, but God will restore the person if he/she repents.

The end result is that the person walked away and they are without God leading their lives. No matter how you view the position.

The problem with both positions is that they try to condemn or defend a man's heart, which none of us know. Only God knows.

To be OSAS or CD, a person has to play God and judge a person's heart. It's not correct in either instance, whether it is a judgement for or against a person's heart. Only God knows. We are not God!

We have to strive daily to keep ourselves in check and to be our brother's (and sister's) keeper and do all we can to draw each other closer to Christ.

If we leave it here, the matter is really resolved. We should stop trying to do God's job in judging hearts and do our job in leading others to the straight and narrow.

God bless,
DLJ

Too . . . "A Tree Is Known by Its Fruit" . .

Matthew 7:

. . . "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

. . . . Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The Two Foundations

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

. . . And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes".

Donna, this scripture is not talking about already saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit believers...it's talking about those who add works to salvation and don't soley rely upon the finished work of the cross and his blood.

See, research the scripture first before you post something. It's called rightly dividing the word. Not every scripture is talking to born again believers.

I have read the posts of Edgardo on OSAS versus conditional salvation.

We will all stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ after the Rapture and will be judged accordingly by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. I wish for Edgardo to say what he wishes to say. There is a purpose for everything.

RITA has provided a space for that very topic so Edgardo has all the rights to post. His posts are interesting for a study. Time is running out and we have to study more and get ready to stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

I hope to post more in the coming days.

True Mameng, but the Judgement Seat is not for our sins, it's for our works. Our bad works will burn by fire and our good works that we have done will be rewarded. Our sins will not be discussed because they were already taken care of on the cross!

2 Corinthians 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
Who will appear at the Judgment? We Christians.
Who will receive a reward? Everyone.
What will be rewarded? Both good works and bad works.

What about 1 Corinthians 3:14 and 15? “If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss : but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”
What is the reward of the person who suffered loss? It's in the verse.

Having eternal salvation is not a license to sin and the character of God is a punisher of unrighteousness. Galatians 6:7 says “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

That is why it is said right after 2 Corinthians 5:10 “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord”. This terror is the reward for bad deeds. Here are the other verses to support this.

Hebrews 2:2 “every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward”

Luke 12:47 “And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.”

Donna is right. The Sermon on the Mount is for the saved believers. It was originally addressed to the DISCIPLES (Matthew 5:1,2), and today the sermon is for Christians. Unbelievers are not directly in view in the sermon; they being unregenerated cannot be expected to obey in spirit and in truth the precepts contained in the Lord's discourse. The sermon is a HOW to enter the Kingdom. Notice the very first sentence: "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" [heavens, Gk. orig.]. The saved here are being told how to enter into the coming Kingdom of the heavens. Therefore, it's obvious there's at least the possibility of some of the saved failing to enter the Kingdom (see 7:13,14, 21-23).

Pardon me, but I can't see from my posts here any heretical teaching. Why, I do not take away from the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If I did, then let me be accursed (cf. Gal. 1:8,9). What I write about here, is THE WORD OF THE KINGDOM, Matthew 13:19. The Word of the Kingdom is the message that Christians need to hear today (but is almost absent from Christendom, courtesy of Satan's deception, as foretold by the Lord in Luke 18:8b and Matthew 13:33). We have already heard and accepted the Word of Salvation -- the gospel of the Grace of God. Now we need to hear and accept the gospel of the Glory of Christ (2 Cor. 4:4). In other words, we have to work on the PURPOSE FOR OUR SALVATION. And that includes GROWING in grace and in the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Pet. 3:18). There is the gospel for the unsaved (the simple gospel of the Grace of God), and there is the gospel for the already-saved (the gospel of the Glory of Christ). That's why apostle Paul wanted to go to Rome, "So, as much as in me, I am ready to preach the gospel to you [the believers]that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ [the gospel of glory]: for it is the power of God unto salvation [future salvation of the soul] to everyone that believeth [already a believer]; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:15,16).

We have barely scratched the surface of the Word of the Kingdom, the gospel for Christians . . . may I continue posting?

Email: egayrapture@yahoo.com

See Edgardo, what you fail to understand is that Christ's righteousness is imputed to the believer.

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans 4:5).

See, we are totally without blemish and righteous because of our faith. Even when we sin after being saved, we are still righteous because his is imputed to us.

So what you are saying is that if a believer sins or falls into besetting sins after being saved, he or she can lose out on something (reigning in the kingdom). No true believer will lose out on the kingdom because Christ already paid the penalty for that sin. So what you are teaching is false and you are decieved my friend.

Josh, it's not me who is saying there will be Christians who will lose something when the Kingdom comes:

"Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man TAKE THY CROWN" (Rev. 3:11).

"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 5:20).

"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" (Matt. 19:24).

"Verily, I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein" (Luke 18:17).

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9,10).

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:19-21).

"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no *****monger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God" (Eph. 5:3-5).

Note: All the above passages are addressed to saved believers.

OSAS, yes! (salvation of the spirit). But entrance into the Kingdom/millennial bliss (salvation of the soul} is CONDITIONED on spiritual growth.

Imputed righteousness of Christ is for our justification in the sight of God. But practical righteousness is the "wedding garment" (Matt. 22:11,12; Rev. 19:8) we need to have in order to be let in into the Kingdom.

Sins unrepented of and/or UNBELIEF (the "besetting sin" mentioned in Hebrews) will cost us to lose in the coming Kingdom. We have the Israelites for an example not to follow (1 Cor. 9:24-10:12).

Email: egayrapture@yahoo.com

Sorry, those scriptures are not for already saved believers...they are addressed to unbelievers.

Edgardo, your teaching on "soul" salvation and "practical" salvation to enter the Millennial Kingdom is false and twisted.

We are saved, justified, sealed and FULLY accepted only because of Christ' righteousness. HE is our righteous covering. HIS finished work at Calvary can not be added to. He saves to the UTMOST and there are NO exceptions or conditions.

He alone fulfilled the spiritual kingdom principles He taught on the mountain. Only He could or can fulfill all the law. If someone breaks only one of the 613 laws of Moses they are called the "least" in the kingdom of Heaven. (Mt 5:19) Only God can love His enemies. We are incapable of that. He concluded by saying "Therefore you SHALL be PERFECT, just as you Father in heaven is perfect." Yeah, sure. You think you are going to be PERFECT in your own strength and behavior??? Lots of luck!

We are deemed PERFECT in Christ. That is the only way. Any other way is IMPOSSIBLE.

You may NOT continue to teach this heresy, but are welcome to fellowship with us as we WATCH for the return of Jesus Christ to rapture us, His Bride. I know that you are sincere in what you believe,but you are sincerely wrong my friend.

Tom

Email: tparbar@gmail.com

Absolutely, Tom . .

. . All religions base merit on the worshipper's works, THEIR false gods do these souls no good, and mercilessly cause harm.

Oh, Jesus, thank You for being God's Sacrifice. We are children of the Most High God, because of You, oh Lamb of God. For it pleased the Father to 'make' for Himself 'new creations in Christ Jesus' . .

Believing it, for the Word says so!!

remembering the Apostle Paul was confounded at times, crying out, AFTER his salvation oh, wretched man that I am, who can save me from this flesh' . . Thank You, Father for sending Jesus, making a Way for our salvation . . amen, Lord, You will not share Your glory with anyone . .

Okay, thank you for admitting me into the RITA fellowship. I only wish you were like the Bereans who DIGGED into the Word to see the deep things of God, Acts 17:11, 1 Cor. 2:10. (Donna, I thought you believed the Sermon on the Mount is for Christians) The doctrine of the grace of God, the imputed righteousness of Christ, belong to the milk of God's Word, that is, elementary or foundational doctrine. We are enjoined to grow from "milk to meat and strong meat." -- "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk [keeps on returning to the foundation] is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, LET US GO ON UNTO PERFECTION [maturity]; not laying again [and again] the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God . . ." (Hebrews 5:12-6:1).

You insist that I'm teaching heresy. But what saith the Scripture? Well, I will not go on repeating myself. The Bible is there for all of us to STUDY. I have hoped that my posts would set you thinking . . .

By the way, Tom, you mentioned the Bride of Christ. The whole Church is not the Bride of Christ. The Church is the BODY of Christ from which His Bride will be taken. We know that Adam was a type of Christ. Just as Eve was taken from the body of Adam, so will the Bride be taken out of the Body of Christ the Church. Only the minority part of the Church will compose the Bride (the rib was a small part of Adam's body which was built into his bride). The Bride of Christ, just like the types Zipporah and Rachel, are Christians who are drawing from the well the WATER OF LIFE, the Word of God. We had better be sure we are part of the elect group who will form the Bride and Wife of Christ when He comes.

Email: egayrapture@yahoo.com

The above statement of yours is exactly why you are a false teacher and off on you doctrine of Salvation. It has nothing to do with milk or meat of the Word, it has to do with the TRUTH of the Word of God

There is no difference between the Bride of Christ and the Body of Christ. They are one and the same. You are mixing up rewards of the believer with the position of the believer.

The first is for our obedience to allow (or not) the Holy Spirit to operate His righteousness through us that scripture calls "fruit". We can not produce any of this fruit. We can only "present" it just as branches "present" fruit for the picking but does not produce that fruit.

The position of ALL believers is "seated with Christ" at the right hand of God. Fully accepted and righteous in Him. It is the Father that chose the Son's Bride, the Son paid the price for that Bride and proclaimed He would not lose any the Father had given Him.

What you are attempting to teach is that somehow the "body of Christ" is separated into two (or more) categories. It is like the caste system in India and other SE Asian countries. That is not Gods way.

In Ephesians Paul tells us that ALL who believe in Christ Jesus (Yeshua) are acceptable to the Beloved and gathered together in ONE all things in Christ.

In Eph. chapter two He teaches us that both Jews and Gentiles are one NEW man and ONE "body" in Christ because of the finished work at the cross.

Chapter four. Christ is the HEAD and the WHOLE body is joined to Him.

Chapter six. He relates the position and relationship of a husband and wife to Christ and the Church. "The two shall be joined together and the two shall be ONE flesh".

Doesn't get any clearer than that.

Tom

Email: tparbar@gmail.com

Tom, Josh, and Donna, there are two kinds of justifications in the Bible. The first one is found in Romans 5:1 “Therefore being justified by faith”. The second one is found in James 2:24 “by works a man is justified”

Now what does it mean to be justified? To be justified is to stand correct. Absolved from the penalty of sin.

An unbeliever cannot be justified by faith and works. It is either by faith alone or by works alone.

Here is the illustration. A dead man 6 feet under cannot do anything at all much more raise himself up. He is dead. Now, only God can raise him up. Once raised and alive he is now capable of doing something. He is now capable to do something. He is now able to move in the realm where he was dead before.

Justification by works now comes in. Since the person owes his life to God he is now His servant. The servant must be found faithful and to be faithful he must obey His commands. If not, God will not be pleased with him and will give him what every servant deserves.

Luke 12:47 “And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.”

Justification based on works is also known as the race that every Christian should be found in.

These are truths that are very fundamental that only requires faith in Jesus to understand. Faith that His words are alive and true. It is not for anybody to interpret the Bible. Do not rely on commentaries. Be faithful to each word, sentence, paragraph, and book of the Bible.

Israel

Email: israel_benemerito@yahoo.com

The above is a most preposterous claim. Revelation 3:11 was addressed by the Lord Jesus to the church in Philadelphia. The Sermon on the Mount was addressed to the disciples. And the epistles to the Corinthians, Galatians, and Ephesians were addressed to Christians.

Email: egayrapture@yahoo.com

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. They have to insert the phrase “but us” after “in all creation”.

None of this defense of Eternal Security is intended to condone sin. As an indication of our gratitude for the gift of salvation, believers are continually admonished in Scripture to live our lives in a manner pleasing to God. Not to earn or keep it, but to thank the Lord for giving it to us. And to help us do that, the Holy Spirit has come to dwell in us to guide and direct us, and to pray for us. Since the Spirit of God lives in us we are no longer controlled by the sin nature and can choose to please God by the way we live. And even though we do this out of gratitude for the Gift He’s already given, which is Union with Him, He blesses us both here on Earth (Fellowship) and in Eternity (the Prize).

Looks like I will only be posting at the TOP from NOW on :
"none of this defense of eternal security is condoning sin .."
Amen !
if we "choose" to stay with HIM in our own volition , He will not choose to leave us , in no way ! He says I will NEVER forsake you , never leave you !
HOLINESS is worked out in you BY HIS Holy Spirit as you abide in HIM ...HE SAYS "ABIDE IN ME !!!!!!!"
this equals holiness ...HIS ABIDING IN YOU as you abide in HIM ...

It is called SALVATION !
Christ as Savior enters the heart of a believer at the moment of salvation in the form of HIS HOLY SPIRIT !
The Holy Spirit then produces the fruit of Christ abiding there !
MEN basically get credit for only one thing ...that WE SAY YES ! to HIM in our volition ...
and even so The WORD says we were called , "were His" before The Foundation of this world .....
The Word :
" whom he foreknew , He foreordained , Whom he foreordained , He FORGAVE !!!! "

I'm forwarding this from the board in response to Garrett's questions..........

"Just believe, without holiness,Doctrine of the devil"

"Quote:
Originally Posted by garrett shaw
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judith

MY RESPONSE TO GARRETT:

WORKS:

1 Cor. 3:14-15 - If what he has built survives, he (Christian) will receive his reward. If it is burned up he will suffer loss; he himself will be SAVED but only as one escaping through the flames.

James 2:17 - In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. *

* James is not saying that dead faith is not faith at all because even dead faith is REAL! The action in faith is gone, and the power behind it is gone, but it's still REAL. Now faith is alive when it produces good works and naturally dies when it doesn't.

James is questioning the usefulness of their faith - and the SALVATION FROM THE CONSEQUENCES of sin not our ETERNAL SALVATION.

Remember we sow what we reap and God will punish (correct) the sin in our lives if unrepentant and He will allow the natural consequences only to bring us back to Himself in repentance. While our faith in Christ Jesus promises us ETERNAL SALVATION it does not promise us SALVATION FROM THE CONSEQUENCES of sin here and now if left unchecked.

LIFE:

Colossians 3:2-4 - Set your mind on things above, not on earthly things. For you DIED and your LIFE is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your LIFE, appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

SANCTIFICATION:

Hebrews 6:9 - But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

BELIEF & SALVATION:

Acts 13:48 - When the Gentiles heard this they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were APPOINTED to ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who BELIEVE AND ARE SAVED.

FAITH:

Hebrews 11:1 - Now FAITH is being SURE of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see.

HOLINESS:

Hebrews 12:10 - Our Fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in HIS HOLINESS.

GARRETT'S REPLY:

Blessing my sister
But I believe you are pushing those scripture

How do you explain this scripture

15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. Revelation 3
HE IS ADDRESSING CHRISTIAN

I WOULD SUBMIT THIS HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE SAINTS WHO BELIEVED, BUT WHERE SUPPRESSING THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THEM, BECAUSE THEY LOVED THERE SINS AND NOT WILLING TO YIELD TO THE HOLY SPIRIT TO PRODUCE GOOD WORKS IN THEM.

AND HE SAID I WILL SPIT THEM OUT OF MY MOUTH.

WHY BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT HOT OR COLD FOR HIM

MEANING NEUTRAL,LIVING IN SIN AND TRYING TO SERVE GOD

Matthew 6
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

SO TRUE FAITH AND IF I BELIEVE IT WILL PRODUCE WORKS

MY RESPONSE TO GARRETT:

Oh my dear Garrett, I see and understand your struggle with the word and greatly appreciate your questions. I pray that your eyes will be opened to the wonderful truths and that the contradictions you perceive will fade away and you will find perfect assurance in all the promises of God.

In answer to your question regarding the Laodiceain church I quote the following from Dr. Ironside. I would heartily recommend you read his commentary on Revelations ch. 2 & 3 which brings to light many truths.

From Dr. Ironside:

"Yes, there is lots of work, much fleshly energy and human effort being put forth to reclaim the world, and make it a comfortable place for men to live in, apart from Christ; but the great things of God's truth are largely neglected, and myriads of so-called church-workers are utter STRANGERS TO THE NEW BIRTH, without which no one can see the Kingdom of God.

And so we see the Lord standing at last outside the door of the professing church, and saying so tenderly, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me."

Please read all of his commentary - it's really good. http://www.biblecentre.org/commentaries/hai_70_revelation.htm

A true Christian may find himself/herself inside the doors of a lukewarm church, but that doesn't mean the church as a whole body are saved Christians. The same is true of a Philedelphia church. While most of the Philedelphia church was operating under the concept of true christianity, I'm sure there were others inside that church who were fakers/apostates still clinging on to their false doctrines. The same is true today.

Insofar as your stating that I was "pushing the scriptures", I would ask in what way? Is Ephesians 2:8-9 an example of pushing scripture...."For by grace you are saved through faith, it is a gift from God, not of WORKS lest any man should boast"?. How do you respond to this verse Garrett?

EDITED TO ADD:

Just one more question Garrett.....do you really believe that Jesus's death and resurrection was a completed and finished work for the salvation of sinners? If so, then how can we add or subtract with anything other than believing in that great truth?

WORKS FOLLOW SALVATION or should. If not, the word is plain...."they will suffer loss and be saved as by fire only."

Preach it, sis . .

Bonnie, please continue to start new posts as you are led . . this thread is for the above subject only . .

Many here are blessed by your spirit-filled enthusiasm and submission to the Lord. Keep sharing your offerings of God's beautiful Truth . . .

I cannot figue all this out ...discouraged to the enth degree ....

SO WHY DOES PAUL TELL US TO EXAMINE OUR SELF

AND WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE WE BELIEVE

AND IF WE BELIEVE WITHOUT PRODUCING FRUIT ARE WE SAVED

2 Corinthians 13
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates


rep·ro·bate   MEANING .

1.
a depraved, unprincipled, or wicked person: a drunken reprobate.
2.
a person rejected by god and beyond hope of salvation.
–adjective
3.

rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation.


SO IT IS POSSIBLE FOR A CHRISTIAN TO SAY I BELIEVE AND BECOME REPROBATE,

IF THAT IS THE CASE WHAT SEPARATE REAL CHRISTIAN FROM FAKE CHRISTIAN.

SIMPLE:CHRIST IN US AT ((((WORK)))) TO CONFORM US TO HIS LIKENESS

Email: garrettshaw23@aol.com

Website: www.youtube.com/user/garrettshaw23

Goodbye ....I cannot bear this anymore ..heartbroken !

AT LEAST ONE PERSON UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING
THANK YOU OLA ILORI

BLESSING AND LOVE TO ALL MY BROTHER AND SISTER
AS WE DISAGREE IN LOVE



Hi Garrett,

I agree with everything you have been trying to say.

Works are the outward manifestation of a living faith.

For Paul writes,

"For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."

This is probably one of Paul's most misunderstood statements!

Let me give the correct idea of what Paul is saying.

The gift of God in the above verse is the confession with our lips that Jesus is our Lord and God.

This confession is a gift because it is freely given by the Holy Spirit.

After the first confession is made, subsequent confessions made from the Word, are also gifts from the Holy Spirit.

All these confessions originate from the Lord Himself, through His Holy Spirit, Who takes up permanent residence in us.

His ultimate aim is to produce good deeds.

Because these good deeds are produced by the Holy Spirit, they are gifts from God, freely given to use.

Because they are from God, they have eternal life in them.

It's the eternal life in the good deeds we do day in day out that will make it possible for the Lord to translate us on the Day of the rapture.

Also the good deeds done by all those who have died in Christ, will enable Him to raise them up from the dead.

This is why the Lord said,

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth - those who have done good, to the resurrection of Life." (John 5:28,29)

Because all the good deeds done by the Spirit filled believer are gifts, he has no reason to boast.

He humbly acknowledges that every good deed is received, and is a manifestation of the grace of God upon him.

The person who does not believe in Jesus as Lord,and has not received the Holy Spirit,can only do what appears to be good deeds.

They are actually dead works because they originate in the flesh and will die with the flesh.

This is why the Lord told the scribes and Pharisees,

"...if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24)

The scribes and Pharisees were relying on good deeds apart from the Lord to get them in to Heaven.

They were not prepared to believe that the Person speaking to them was Lord and God of Heaven and earth.

By rejecting Him they also were rejecting the Holy Spirit that proceeds from Him, as a result, if they were to die, in-spite of all there good deeds, they would end up in hell.

Having faith without works is like having a tree with many leaves, but without any fruit.

Nobody plants a tree expecting fruit, only to end up with leaves!

The Lord wants fruit from the trees He is planting.

He is coming only for those who are bearing fruit.

Those who are not will have to go into the Great Tribulation.

The good deeds I am talking about here are every day things.

A Husband loving his wife. A wife loving her husband, parents loving there children.

These are all within reach of most people.

These good deeds are what create and build up the spiritual man within.

The spiritual man strives with our evil flesh every day to do good works.

He will continue to do so until the Day of the rapture!!!

Now you can understand why Paul went on to say,

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Eph.2:10)

Do remain blessed.

Email: garrettshaw23@aol.com

Website: www.youtube.com/user/garrettshaw23

Bonnie you followed the Holy Spirit's leading and now only God can reveal these precious truths to Garrett's heart.

I recall the former years as a seeker and there was so much I wanted to learn. It wasn't until later years that I realized there is a preparation involved and truths don't come to us all at once. Gradually, I was able to receive more as my understanding was enlightened. And the process still goes on.

Garrett is a seeker and as such will glean as much as he is prepared for. His questions are honest and sincere and whether or not he realizes it he is seeking and will learn as God reveals truths to him - that is providing he doesn't give up. Even so, God is faithful and we can just let go and let God in this situation.

You are a blessing Bonnie and a dear sweet sister.

It's hard not to be discouraged, I know. It's like Paul said in Gal. 4:19 - "My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you. How I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!"

Hi my name is Elizabeth and I'm new here.

Bonnie, do not be discouraged or downhearted because of what others believe.

Like you wrote, we were foreordained from before the foundation of the world and our only part was to ask the Lord for forgiveness and to be our Savior.

Christ is our justification and our sanctification - Christ has done it all.

I'm so thankful because I'm not good at alot of things, and many things I mess up. There is nothing I can do to lose my salvation. This is my faith anyway.

I thank Christ and rejoice everyday.

Elizabeth

Hi Elizabeth - Welcome to RITA, and thank you for sharing.

Introduce yourself on the board and let everyone know you're here. We love to welcome newcomers.

Hi Judith,

Thank you for the welcome.

I will also introduce myself on the main board when I have something to post - hopefully soon.

Elizabeth

Bonnie dear sis......I am confused to the enth degree also, it is heartbreaking, I am so sorry for all of this, it is a shame.

Love...............Lynn

There is something that really bothers me about all our doctrinal differences....how can genuine believers have so many interpretations of God's word?

I don't have all the answers, that's for sure, but the basic message of salvation - that one really disturbs me. You would think that there would be unity on that one simple doctrine.

True, when we are new to the faith there are issues and questions that need answers, we grow in knowledge, etc., but after a period of time wouldn't you think the true message would become clear?

I've often wondered about christians who go a lifetime thinking that they can lose their salvation. If they haven't put their faith in the finished work of Christ then what?

What is saving faith if it isn't believing in Christ as your savior and Him alone - without works.

garrett,

I believe you sincerely believe what you are saying, and I see what you are getting at.

Of course I agree that the true believer will want to produce fruit as an offering of thanks to God for salvation through the Holy Spirit who indwells him/her, and I'm not trying to condone or justify any sin.

But what I don't understand about what I've quoted above is this:

How is God going to determine that our "good deed" are adequate "to translate us on the Day of the rapture" or "enable Him to raise them up from the dead" ?

Will that be by the quantity of good deeds or the quality? A scale to measure "good" against "bad"? If one is committing a sin, or failing to "produce fruit" at the time of death or of the rapture, will they then be disqualified?

Paul said the dead in Christ would rise first at the rapture - where does it say that it depends on what kind or how many good deeds they'd done before death?

This whole subject raises the question, if Christ's blood is not enough, then what yardstick are we supposed to use so we can KNOW we will be received in the rapture, whether we are alive or have died?

It is not enough just to say "abide in him" or "produce fruit" or "do good works." We are still human beings in fallen bodies and we still sin, even though we try not to. Some Christians produce more fruit than others.

So if your position is correct, please tell me how to KNOW that I'm secure in Christ by telling me how God will measure my works and decide whether I'm worthy for the rapture!

I personally believe that it's acceptance by faith in the gracious gift of the blood of Christ for forgiveness of sin that qualifies us for eternal life and the rapture, and that the Holy Spirit is the King's seal of this truth in our lives.

But if I'm going to seriously consider your argument, then I need to hear you explain how you believe one can know for certain that their works are sufficient to do what you claim that they do.

I disagree on two points.

First, the gospel of the kingdom was for the Jews
in the prior dispensation (this will pick up where it left off in the 7-year trib). We are now under the New Covenant of grace.

http://withchrist.org/MJS/gospels.htm

MILES J. STANFORD

"Most dispensationalists, along with Covenant theologians, fail to realize that there are two Gospels, each dependent upon the Blood of the Cross. One is earthly, the other is heavenly. And both Gospels are "according to Jesus." The one was ministered by Him on earth, in His humiliation, prior to the Cross, exclusively for Israel and her earthly kingdom.

The other--and it is altogether "new creation" other--was ministered to Paul by the glorified Lord Jesus Christ; after Calvary, from heaven, exclusively for His chosen heavenly Body, His beloved Bride."


To repeat this convenant theology is to forever perpetuate confusion (but if I'm wrong, please show me.)

Second, I believe the requirement to confess before men is taken out of context and is adding works:

Faith Alone in Christ Alone—Elucidated
http://www.bibleone.net/print_tbs67.html

Just as repentance and lordship salvation has no place in the salvation transaction, it is the same for the any requirement of public confession, which is often based on two misinterpreted verses, Matthew 10:32 and Romans 10:9.

Matthew 10:32, therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. This study can only validate the cogent remarks regarding this passage by Lewis Sperry Chafer in his Systematic Theology.

This verse, which occurs in the midst of Christ’s kingdom teachings and as a part of His instructions to His disciples whom He is sending forth with a restricted message to Israel (cf. vss. 5-7) and which was to be accompanied by stupendous miracles (cf. vs. 8) such as were never committed to preachers in the present age, applies, primarily, to these disciples themselves in respect to their faithful delivery of this kingdom proclamation, and could be extended in its appeal only to the Israelites to whom they were sent. The carelessness which assumes that this Scripture presents a condition of salvation for a Jew or Gentile in the present age is deplorable indeed.

Romans 10:9 & 10, that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. The primary meaning of verse 9 is the necessity of recognizing (acknowledging) Jesus Christ as the Messiah and His work on the cross of Calvary, to include His resurrection. But verse 9 (confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus) is further explained in verse 10 (with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation). It may better be rendered, as seen in the original text, “For with the heart [a genuine decision of the will] faith is exercised resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth [outward expression] is evidence confirming [before man] this salvation. This interpretation is further confirmed by verse 11, for the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame [or be ashamed]. Here the emphasis is on salvation by faith, yet it includes the fact that the one who is saved by faith will also communicate a testimony before man.

The Believer’s Bible Commentary by William MacDonald has these concluding remarks regarding this passage, “When we present the gospel, we must maintain that faith is the sole condition of justification. But we must also remind sinners and saints constantly that Jesus Christ is Lord (Jehovah-God), and should be acknowledged as such.” Lewis Sperry Chafer concludes in this fashion.

There are two convincing reasons why the Scripture under consideration does not present two human responsibilities in relation to salvation by grace.

a. To claim that a public confession of Christ as Savior is required in addition to believing on Christ, is to contend that 150 passages in which believing alone appears are incomplete and to that extent misleading. A certain type of mind, however, seems able to construct all its confidence on an erroneous interpretation of one passage and to be uninfluenced by the overwhelming body of Scripture which contradicts that interpretation.

b. To require a public confession of Christ as a prerequisite to salvation by grace is to discredit the salvation of an innumerable company who have been saved under circumstance which precluded any public action.

Confession of Christ is a Christian’s privilege and duty and may be undertaken at the moment one is saved, but it is not a condition of salvation by grace, else works of merit intrude where only the work of God reigns. (Systematic Theology)

[Here is an additional issue that requires careful consideration regarding works (same article)]:

The reader should note that nowhere does Scripture support the concept of penitence (contrition or sorrow) as a requirement to be exercised by a lost person in the salvation transaction; although, such emotion when brought about by the Holy Spirit in the conviction (of sin) process may very well precede it (2 Corinthians 7:10). Furthermore, the word repentance is not emphasized; although, the salvation transaction is indeed repentance, meaning only a “turning to Jesus Christ from any other confidence” for one’s personal salvation. In this sense, repentance, to keep within the definition of the word as it is used in the New Testament, is a change of mind or direction, often used to represent the salvation transaction of faith alone in Christ alone. Bottom line, a lost person cannot repent except by placing his faith solely in Christ for his personal salvation. He cannot “repent” and “place his faith” in Christ to be saved. He “repents” by “placing his faith” in Christ. To make salvation a “stepped-process” by adding anything to faith/belief, which a person can terminate prior to the step of faith, is to make it a “works-faith” (meritorious) process that is incapable of saving anyone.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, D.D., Litt.D., Th.D., late President and Professor of Systematic Theology, Dallas Theological Seminary, has this to say regarding the matter:

“Few errors have caused so much hindrance to the salvation of the lost than the practice of demanding of them an anguish of soul before faith in Christ can be exercised. Since such emotions cannot be produced at will, the way of salvation has thus been made impossible for all who do not experience the required anguish. This error results in another serious misdirection of the unsaved, namely, one in which they are encouraged to look inward at themselves and not away to Christ as Savior. Salvation is made to be conditioned on feelings and not on faith. Likewise, people are led by this error to measure the validity of their salvation by the intensity of anguish which preceded or accompanied it. It is in this manner that sorrow of heart becomes a most subtle form of meritorious work and to that extent a contradiction of grace. Underlying all this supposition that tears and anguish are necessary is the most serious notion that God is not propitious, but that He must be softened to pity by penitent grief. The Bible declares that God is propitious because of Christ’s death for the very sin which causes human sorrow. There is no occasion to melt or temper the heart of God. His attitude toward sin and the sinner is a matter of revelation. To imply, as preachers have done so generally, that God must be mollified and lenified by human agony is a desperate form of unbelief. The unsaved have a gospel of good news to believe, which certainly is not the mere notion that God must be coaxed into a saving attitude of mind; it is that Christ has died and grace is extended from One who is propitious to the point of infinity.” (Systematic Theology)

And he goes on to say in his comprehensive Systematic Theology:

As before stated, repentance, which is a change of mind, is included in believing. No individual can turn to Christ from some other confidence without a change of mind, and that, it should be noted, is all the repentance a spiritually dead individual can ever affect. That change of mind is the work of the Spirit (Eph. 2:8). It will be considered, too, by those who are amenable to the Word of God, that the essential preparation of heart which the Holy Spirit accomplishes in the unsaved to prepare them for an intelligent and voluntary acceptance of Christ as Savior—as defined in John 16:8-11—is not a sorrow for sin. The unsaved who come under this divine influence are illuminated—given a clear understanding—concerning but one sin, namely, that “they believe not on me.”

To believe on Christ is one act, regardless of the manifold results which it secures. It is not turning from something to something; but rather turning to something from something. If this terminology seems a mere play on words, it will be discovered, by more careful investigation, that this is a vital distinction. To turn from evil may easily be a complete act in itself, since the action can be terminated at that point. To turn to Christ is a solitary act, also, and the joining of these two separate acts corresponds to the notion that two acts—repentance and faith—are required for salvation. On the other hand, turning to Christ from all other confidences is one act, and in that one act repentance, which is a change of mind, is included. The Apostle stresses this distinction in accurate terms when he says to the Thessalonians, “Ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God” (1 Thess. 1:9). This provides no comfort for those who contend that people must first, in real contrition, turn from idols—which might terminate at that point—and afterwards, as a second and separate act, turn to God. The text recognizes but one act—“Ye turned to God from idols”—and that is an act of faith alone.

Kman,

I understand the difference between the Kingdom Gospel and the Gospel of Grace. I am also very appreciative of the writings of Miles Stanford, Lewis Chafer, and John Darby.

This short quote from Stanford is good, but I disagree with the rest from that 'faith alone in Christ' site where it seems to negate the teachings of Romans 10:9-10.

For one thing, that portion of scripture was given to Paul through revelation of Christ after He had been glorified (Gospel of Grace period). This was not one of the revelations He had given to His disciples while He was living on earth with them before He had been crucified (kingdom teachings).

I believe Romans 10:9-10 stands for the church exactly the way it is written. That is my understanding anyway, and I apologize if I misunderstood your point or the point of the article.

Elizabeth

Kman, your post has brought back the joy and assurance I felt when I first believed unto salvation at the age of 8 years old.

Like many who are saved young and then grow older hearing false or contradictory messages emphasizing such things as "the concept of penitence (contrition or sorrow) as a requirement to be exercised by a lost person in the salvation transaction," there have been many troublesome moments in my life when I was afraid that I had not "done it right."

I would add "LOL" to that last paragraph, but it is no laughing matter. Tonight I feel as lighthearted and secure in Christ as when I first believed some 45 years ago!

As for the matter of the Romans 10 passage, I believe that the "confessing with the mouth" phrase makes more sense when taken in context with more of the passage:

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.

2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I grew up and was saved in a church in which one "walked the aisle," prayed with the preacher and then it was announced to the congregation that you had accepted Christ. That announcement was considered a fulfillment of the "requirement" of confessing with one's mouth. The non-denominational church I attend now does NOT do this, and I realize now that my childhood church was misapplying this verse. The important thing was that I DID believe on Christ through the prompting of the Holy Spirit and I know I received the free gift of salvation at that early time. Praise God!

Thanks again, Kman. Your posts on this thread and the "Are All Christians Going in the Rapture?" thread have provided the release of a burden that my spirit has been longing for a long time.

Edited:

Just as wonderful, this whole issue puts my mind at ease in the matter of the salvation of my children as well. All were also saved at young ages, in the same denomination that I'd originally been in with the same obstacles. But all three were sincere and under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and are still exercising faith in Christ some 20+ years later, so I feel reassured for them as well. WHICH makes it even more exciting looking forward to the rapture!