My thoughts on getting the word out...




I don't think any of us (not being wealthy) can do it alone. I think it will take a concerted effort of many people to begin making inroads; but I do think it's possible.




What I suggest is that we might approach it as a cooperative effort in creating some kind of zine/CD that would showcase the work of DiY Artists. Both Zzaj and I have been doing this for many, many years and we've both stopped printing because it's very difficult to generate enough buzz to sustain a print vehicle without the funding to kick it off or continued cash flow to keep it going. I also think it's difficult when the subject matter is so personal to be your own marketing guy.




There are others with similar experience and results. Ian at AutoReverse, Jerry at Aural. Lots of other webzines talking about the music. But I really thing the scene needs a real CD/printzine to break the music.




I've actually been thinking about for a while and I think the way to do it is to set up a cooperative collective of DiY music zinesters with the mission of creating a collective CD/printzine.




We're all on the web 'cos the costs of doing print for our little group of core readers is so high; plus, I think we'd all rather just make a zine and the production of print and mailing it is such a huge pain when you do it by yourself.




I do think the reward of print is much greater than the web though. I don't really know why, but I miss something about it. If I could reduce the cost of print in both $/time, then I'd jump to get back into it.




What I'm thinking is based on what we've been doing with The Tapegerm Collective for past year-and-a-half. We have 20-25 musicians there and together we've produced 24 albums of material in that period. It's also much more effective when 20 people are promoting a project, as you can probably imagine.




A collective zine could be produced the same way, without much more effort on each member's parts. We could set up a server to be a repository for articles and mp3's (for comp CD's). We could set up a private mailing list to talk about articles, ask for help, collaborate, talk about ways of promoting the project, new ideas, etc. People with layout skills can share the load there. Actually production could be done in several ways. We could even start producing and selling the zine on demand as I've been accumulating a pretty decent setup toward that end here.




It's also easier to promote something that isn't totally your own baby. For instance it's always been easier for me to wax poetic about Zzaj's music than my own. And a collective effort would be the same kind of thing.




You'd have to find people committed to the idea for the long haul. And we'd have to find a way that the people involved had some kind of return on their efforts to provide incentive to really push to make the thing break to the outside world.




Anyway, I think to showcase the underground DiY scene and it's artists we need to create something exciting and busting with energy and cooperative spirit, just like the scene we're writing about. We've all tried to create a cooperative air amongst our readers to varyiing degrees of success. But readers are readers and makers of music for the most part. Some of us, on the other hand, are zinesters for reasons we probably can't define completely, and maybe if we all joined together we could produce something beautiful with great impact. And in doing so, we can begin to truly showcase the individual DiY artist in the proper light.




If anyone's interested, let's get moving. Start a yahoogroups mailing list, gather some committed people, put our talents and resources on the table, and watch it explode.

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Replying to:

while i don't favor going to "the dark side" musically in order to satisfy a commercial market.


i do think that some of that market could be "sold' to the D.I.Y. tradition.


i am impressed by all the "threads" that exist online for this type of music making.


if you don't have a way to "showcase" in a live performance. whats gonna be the best way to get the word out?


internet? sure but thats where all the rest of us are.


i want to find a way to reach those listener deprived folks that are looking for us but don't know to find us.






i want to dispell the typical connotations of D.I.Y. being substandard or second best.

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Replying to:

Thx, v-man... now we gotta' get some FEEDBACK from some OTHER music fans... but, as you say, it's often only the D.I.Y.'er's who dig D.I.Y. Mebbe' what we need is a CNN feature series on D.I.Y. artists? I think Bryan had tried to get some (serious) press going when he started HOMEMADE MUSIC a few years back... but I imagine the folks who said they would support it pulled back when they realized that we MEAN "do it yourself"... IOW that we don't NEED their "commercial" help (unless we want to be commercial ourselves, o' course). It's a hard one, man! Go TOO far wit' it & it ain't "D.I.Y." no more, yay?

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Replying to:

this is a great idea and i have considered it myself.


a annual fee of $35.00 sounds good but i too am no marketing guru . i believe there's a "core subscriber" audience out there but, what will it take to sell them? a CD, a newsletter,i would love to know myself.


selling the mystique of D.I.Y


is a hard sell in todays world


most of the people i know who are into D.I.Y. are artist themselves.


one idea could be some type of visual way to promote this, a DVD with artist info,in concert performances etc.i dunno i do know


people respond better to the visual.

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Replying to:

That was just a "wing-it", Bryan. I'm not positive. What was running through my mind is something like this:




Cover art: $3.50 (I'm doing the prints on a color inkjet, costs a HECKUVVA lotta' $)




CD: $1.00, includes jewel case




Mail: $1.85 per mailing




Envelope(s): $1.00 per mailing




Time/electric: $1.50




...which, if one totals it up, puts me at (somewhat) of a loss... we'd LOVE to hear what other D.I.Y.'er's think should be the annual charge????

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Replying to:

Why $35? Just wondering what you anticipate the costs being.

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Replying to:

Bret, didn't you try a subscription service kind of thing (for a while)? Did it work? Did you get any more music out that way? If you did (& I think I remember that somewhere on (one of) your web pages), what were you chargning? After thinking it through a bit, I'm thinking one would have to charge around $35 a year (per subscriber) to break even. Has anyone ELSE tried this already? Did it WORK?

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Replying to:

Yes. Enquiring minds want to know. I don't know, really. Is it better the other way? To be a creative enigma? Is that best? Do people want that? Maybe they do.




But I'm sort of wondering, as home recording artists, do people know enough about you to even want to buy an album. 'Cos we don't have the live show thing going; most of us, anyway. We're not reaching people in any other kind of way. Is it too much to expect someone to reach out and buy your album like that? Or do we need to offer something more?




I hope you don't mind that I use you as an example because it's really universal for all home recording artists. I mean, how many CD's are you selling, Dick? Are you getting fans outside of our little music community? Bottom line, how do you get people to involve themselves in your work?




bryan

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Replying to:

Hmmmmmmmm...........?


Will we have to list our favorite foods and pet peeves?


-Bret

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Replying to:

I've been thinking about this lately and thought I might run it by you (Zzaj) since I think it's an idea that would be perfect for you.




I'm thinking you must have lots of music coming out of the Zzaj camp, lots of pans, lots of fires. Most of it, I'm guessing, ends up on a CD eventually.




There seems to be so much of it, I wonder if setting up a kind of "fan club" would be helpful for people who are both fans and newcomers to the whole Zzaj mystique?




What I've been thinking about (for my own music) is a kind of fan club/subscription thing where people support you with an annual subscription and you send them like a quarterly CD and a newsletter that kinda highlights what's been going on in the studio (and out). Kind of a personal take on the creative process and and insight into this and that.




With me, my music is more single-based. I might collaborate with a person for one or two songs but rarely lengthy projects like you. For me, the whole album focus doesn't really make much sense for the way I work. I don't think I'm that much different than many indie artists that way in that albums seem to be a kind of artificial collection of disparate pieces.




So for my music, a subscription would give a "fan" access to most everything I do; MUCH of which would never end up on an album. A quarterly CD would contain experiments, live takes, alternative takes, collaborations, and all sorts of stuff that, when it comes time to releasing a record, doesn't really fit into the album format, but still represents what I'm all about musically.




For you, since your output is so much greater than mine, and you seem to be more project-based, a quarterly CD would probably be more of an overview of what's coming out of Zzaj Studios this quarter. Like, "I'm working with Ernesto on this piece that will be included on an upcoming work in progress." Or "Here's an excerpt from the new Zzaj-Kissinger album, and this is what I was thinking at the time..." That kind of stuff where you really talk about the creative process but that never makes it into the album liner notes, but would really be cool to get on a regular basis.




This is just sort of off the top 'o the head. I've set a "fan club" subscription thingy for my music at my web site, more as a test, for one, and also as a way to talk to other artists I admire about maybe trying the same thing for themselves or to get a dialogue going on the subject.




I think it would be cool to get this kind of thing from you and I could think of quite a few other cassette culture veterans that are still making the good stuff and I'd probably actually be more interested in the fan club CD from them rather than an album. I want the underside of the creative process. I'd like to hear, for instance, alternate takes of stuff coming from MJB's studio; or find out what he was thinking about this song or that. And the same thing from a host of others which I could easily name (and so could you).




Anyway, I ramble. Time for your thoughts.




bryan

Whoo-EE, Bryan,




Yer' NOT kidding about "not being wealthy". Just hit my second layoff since September... & right before C-mas, at that. But, that's not th' topic here, yah?




I think this D.I.Y. collective is a GREAT idea... setup the list (at YAHOO, or whereever), & really get some SOLID ideas/discussions going about what this MIGHT/OUGHT to be...




You're right that "straight" print won't work... a CD sounds best, tho' since I'm not a "document" kind of guy (much prefer WWW pages), I'd have to defer to someone else's thoughts on that part... up-front decisions on content, scope & allocation per artist are something I could be part of, for sure. An article by each featured artist, on a chosen topic about D.I.Y./Home Production, with some level of music as part of the feature (kind of replace the .mp3 site with a circulatable CD, eh?).




Your thought that this would have to be "highly energetic & well focused" is RIGHT ON the money... we would have to make sure we had ideas from plenty of different artists about what kind of articles/music(s) should be featured, so they would GRAB folks... I'm wondering if a possible added attraction might not be that "D.I.Y. Summit" thing we talked about so long ago, Bryan. I could look into that from this end... that's PARTICULARLY a good thing, since Olympia is SO heavy into "punk" music these years... there are a couple of great play-spaces we could rent... make the "grand prize" for submissions to the CD effort a free trip to the "D.I.Y. Summit"? Something along those lines, anyway... maybe we just pay their hotel?




Anyway, since I'm out of work, I can (at least for a couple of months) put a bit more time into this than I might normally be able to... I'm on a tentative (contract) schedule of Wedensday & Friday afternoons as a "fill in" for a small local ISP, with some "house call" work (mostly for people who tried to roll forward to XP, heh, heh)... at any rate, let's see how this goes... I think it COULD HAVE some serious potential!

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Replying to:

My thoughts on getting the word out...




I don't think any of us (not being wealthy) can do it alone. I think it will take a concerted effort of many people to begin making inroads; but I do think it's possible.




What I suggest is that we might approach it as a cooperative effort in creating some kind of zine/CD that would showcase the work of DiY Artists. Both Zzaj and I have been doing this for many, many years and we've both stopped printing because it's very difficult to generate enough buzz to sustain a print vehicle without the funding to kick it off or continued cash flow to keep it going. I also think it's difficult when the subject matter is so personal to be your own marketing guy.




There are others with similar experience and results. Ian at AutoReverse, Jerry at Aural. Lots of other webzines talking about the music. But I really thing the scene needs a real CD/printzine to break the music.




I've actually been thinking about for a while and I think the way to do it is to set up a cooperative collective of DiY music zinesters with the mission of creating a collective CD/printzine.




We're all on the web 'cos the costs of doing print for our little group of core readers is so high; plus, I think we'd all rather just make a zine and the production of print and mailing it is such a huge pain when you do it by yourself.




I do think the reward of print is much greater than the web though. I don't really know why, but I miss something about it. If I could reduce the cost of print in both $/time, then I'd jump to get back into it.




What I'm thinking is based on what we've been doing with The Tapegerm Collective for past year-and-a-half. We have 20-25 musicians there and together we've produced 24 albums of material in that period. It's also much more effective when 20 people are promoting a project, as you can probably imagine.




A collective zine could be produced the same way, without much more effort on each member's parts. We could set up a server to be a repository for articles and mp3's (for comp CD's). We could set up a private mailing list to talk about articles, ask for help, collaborate, talk about ways of promoting the project, new ideas, etc. People with layout skills can share the load there. Actually production could be done in several ways. We could even start producing and selling the zine on demand as I've been accumulating a pretty decent setup toward that end here.




It's also easier to promote something that isn't totally your own baby. For instance it's always been easier for me to wax poetic about Zzaj's music than my own. And a collective effort would be the same kind of thing.




You'd have to find people committed to the idea for the long haul. And we'd have to find a way that the people involved had some kind of return on their efforts to provide incentive to really push to make the thing break to the outside world.




Anyway, I think to showcase the underground DiY scene and it's artists we need to create something exciting and busting with energy and cooperative spirit, just like the scene we're writing about. We've all tried to create a cooperative air amongst our readers to varyiing degrees of success. But readers are readers and makers of music for the most part. Some of us, on the other hand, are zinesters for reasons we probably can't define completely, and maybe if we all joined together we could produce something beautiful with great impact. And in doing so, we can begin to truly showcase the individual DiY artist in the proper light.




If anyone's interested, let's get moving. Start a yahoogroups mailing list, gather some committed people, put our talents and resources on the table, and watch it explode.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

while i don't favor going to "the dark side" musically in order to satisfy a commercial market.


i do think that some of that market could be "sold' to the D.I.Y. tradition.


i am impressed by all the "threads" that exist online for this type of music making.


if you don't have a way to "showcase" in a live performance. whats gonna be the best way to get the word out?


internet? sure but thats where all the rest of us are.


i want to find a way to reach those listener deprived folks that are looking for us but don't know to find us.






i want to dispell the typical connotations of D.I.Y. being substandard or second best.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Thx, v-man... now we gotta' get some FEEDBACK from some OTHER music fans... but, as you say, it's often only the D.I.Y.'er's who dig D.I.Y. Mebbe' what we need is a CNN feature series on D.I.Y. artists? I think Bryan had tried to get some (serious) press going when he started HOMEMADE MUSIC a few years back... but I imagine the folks who said they would support it pulled back when they realized that we MEAN "do it yourself"... IOW that we don't NEED their "commercial" help (unless we want to be commercial ourselves, o' course). It's a hard one, man! Go TOO far wit' it & it ain't "D.I.Y." no more, yay?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

this is a great idea and i have considered it myself.


a annual fee of $35.00 sounds good but i too am no marketing guru . i believe there's a "core subscriber" audience out there but, what will it take to sell them? a CD, a newsletter,i would love to know myself.


selling the mystique of D.I.Y


is a hard sell in todays world


most of the people i know who are into D.I.Y. are artist themselves.


one idea could be some type of visual way to promote this, a DVD with artist info,in concert performances etc.i dunno i do know


people respond better to the visual.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

That was just a "wing-it", Bryan. I'm not positive. What was running through my mind is something like this:




Cover art: $3.50 (I'm doing the prints on a color inkjet, costs a HECKUVVA lotta' $)




CD: $1.00, includes jewel case




Mail: $1.85 per mailing




Envelope(s): $1.00 per mailing




Time/electric: $1.50




...which, if one totals it up, puts me at (somewhat) of a loss... we'd LOVE to hear what other D.I.Y.'er's think should be the annual charge????

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Why $35? Just wondering what you anticipate the costs being.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bret, didn't you try a subscription service kind of thing (for a while)? Did it work? Did you get any more music out that way? If you did (& I think I remember that somewhere on (one of) your web pages), what were you chargning? After thinking it through a bit, I'm thinking one would have to charge around $35 a year (per subscriber) to break even. Has anyone ELSE tried this already? Did it WORK?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Yes. Enquiring minds want to know. I don't know, really. Is it better the other way? To be a creative enigma? Is that best? Do people want that? Maybe they do.




But I'm sort of wondering, as home recording artists, do people know enough about you to even want to buy an album. 'Cos we don't have the live show thing going; most of us, anyway. We're not reaching people in any other kind of way. Is it too much to expect someone to reach out and buy your album like that? Or do we need to offer something more?




I hope you don't mind that I use you as an example because it's really universal for all home recording artists. I mean, how many CD's are you selling, Dick? Are you getting fans outside of our little music community? Bottom line, how do you get people to involve themselves in your work?




bryan

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Hmmmmmmmm...........?


Will we have to list our favorite foods and pet peeves?


-Bret

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I've been thinking about this lately and thought I might run it by you (Zzaj) since I think it's an idea that would be perfect for you.




I'm thinking you must have lots of music coming out of the Zzaj camp, lots of pans, lots of fires. Most of it, I'm guessing, ends up on a CD eventually.




There seems to be so much of it, I wonder if setting up a kind of "fan club" would be helpful for people who are both fans and newcomers to the whole Zzaj mystique?




What I've been thinking about (for my own music) is a kind of fan club/subscription thing where people support you with an annual subscription and you send them like a quarterly CD and a newsletter that kinda highlights what's been going on in the studio (and out). Kind of a personal take on the creative process and and insight into this and that.




With me, my music is more single-based. I might collaborate with a person for one or two songs but rarely lengthy projects like you. For me, the whole album focus doesn't really make much sense for the way I work. I don't think I'm that much different than many indie artists that way in that albums seem to be a kind of artificial collection of disparate pieces.




So for my music, a subscription would give a "fan" access to most everything I do; MUCH of which would never end up on an album. A quarterly CD would contain experiments, live takes, alternative takes, collaborations, and all sorts of stuff that, when it comes time to releasing a record, doesn't really fit into the album format, but still represents what I'm all about musically.




For you, since your output is so much greater than mine, and you seem to be more project-based, a quarterly CD would probably be more of an overview of what's coming out of Zzaj Studios this quarter. Like, "I'm working with Ernesto on this piece that will be included on an upcoming work in progress." Or "Here's an excerpt from the new Zzaj-Kissinger album, and this is what I was thinking at the time..." That kind of stuff where you really talk about the creative process but that never makes it into the album liner notes, but would really be cool to get on a regular basis.




This is just sort of off the top 'o the head. I've set a "fan club" subscription thingy for my music at my web site, more as a test, for one, and also as a way to talk to other artists I admire about maybe trying the same thing for themselves or to get a dialogue going on the subject.




I think it would be cool to get this kind of thing from you and I could think of quite a few other cassette culture veterans that are still making the good stuff and I'd probably actually be more interested in the fan club CD from them rather than an album. I want the underside of the creative process. I'd like to hear, for instance, alternate takes of stuff coming from MJB's studio; or find out what he was thinking about this song or that. And the same thing from a host of others which I could easily name (and so could you).




Anyway, I ramble. Time for your thoughts.




bryan