When Jesus is transfigured, and when He ascends, there are ALWAYS two witnesses...

Luke 9:28 - the Transfiguration - Moses and Elijah - Jesus is transformed, in the twinkling of an eye, just like we will be!

John 20:11 - Mary Magdalene sees two angels in the empty tomb just before Jesus ascends to heaven.

Acts 1:9 - The Ascension - Two men tell how Jesus will return. This happens on Mt. Olive Grove, a SABBATH's journey from Jerusalem. Remember, the last 1,000 years is a Sabbath.

The disciples then go to an UPPER ROOM... i.e. "My father's house has many rooms..."

This suggests to me, that the two witnesses will arrive for the rapture and speak to Israel... "Why do you stare up into the sky? This messiah will return with His bride." And thus provoke Israel to jealousy.


I also note that Jesus appears to the disciples in John 20:19 and receive the Holy Spirit. Thomas is not there.

8 days later, Thomas witnesses Christ.

This suggests a 7 year period where Jesus first appears to us, then 8 'days' later to Israel. (Assuming Thomas is a type of Israel.)

Compare Thomas' encounter with Jesus and when the Jews will look upon "Him who they pierced."

Jesus also appeared to Mary Magdalene before the disciples. This suggests He will appear to his bride before we ascend.

And Luke 9:28 mentions 8 days.

Well, I could be wrong, but always reading the Bible with Pre-trib rapture glasses on...

Very well done!

I would like to add that the 2 coming OLIVE_TREE_witnesses had to be alive and then got killed after our Rapture took place.
These 2 Witnesses must be Elijah and the other Enoch because Moses died before right?

Enoch and Elijah were not dead yet (not baptised in Jesus' name) and so they were TRANS_LateD ...transFERed_LATE_time_zone...then appear back in the same Bodies and so they could Confirm Jesus as Messiah and then be killed.
It is something like a time-machine bringing both Elijah&Enoch back into modern time.

Pls note that Elijah&Enoch not Resurrected Yet. No scriptures ever indicated that they have changed...

This Prehistoric Enoch and Pre_Grace_Period Elijah pointed towards the Lamb of God and need Jesus' Salvation too.

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

Mike,

Luke 9:30 specifically mentions Moses and Elijah, but no names are mentioned in the other events.

But I think the case for Elijah and Enoch could be made since they didn't die.

Personally, I think Moses and Elijah are the best candidates, as Enoch is not connected to Israel.

And yes, the two men remain AFTER Jesus' ascension in Acts, suggesting they arrive and remain after the rapture for 1260 days until their murder/resurrection.

Pls note that Enoch is our great-great-grand father of Noah...so Do you believe that Enoch is related to Israel?

Not only that...Enoch is best candidate to reach out to the whole World who are Noah's descendants.

Thanks be to God!

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

I think Moses and Elijah are more embedded in Israel's culture. However, I can see that Enoch would be a good candidate, since he witnessed the Nephilim, "Just as in the days of Noah.

So, I don't think you're wrong, just don't see a solid fit for either possibilities yet. i.e. I do see both as a possibility. After all, there's also that deal with Moses' body in Jude 1:9...

There were plenty of bodily resurrections in both the old testament and the new testament. So the prohibition that the two witnesses can only be those who have not died is not valid. As there are individuals who died and were resurrected only to die physically a second time. God is sovereign. He can use whomever he chooses to use. To me this is the same type of controversy as whether or not John would not die until Jesus came back.

The disciples at the time did not understand Jesus' words. He did not say that John would not die, only what is it to you if he remains until I come. (John 21:22-23) The rule is that there is only one judgment after you die and appear before God's throne. Even those who have had near death experiences were sent back before judgment telling them it was not their "time" yet. This rules out reincarnation. Most people only get one life and then it is over. God can supersede this rule anytime he wishes because He is sovereign.

I still think Moses and Elijah are the two best candidates for the two witnesses. It is Elijah's role to restore all things. This is talking about restoring the nation of Israel back into a covenant relationship with God. His purpose is to prepare the people for Christ's return. If there is anyone who would have authority to lead Israel to their true Messiah it would be the Lawgiver Moses and the Prophet Elijah. Moses even told Israel about Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19(NASB)
“The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.

“This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’

“The LORD said to me, ‘They have spoken well.

‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.

I disagree on this timing for a myriad of reasons:

http://www.trackingbibleprophecy.com/revelation.php

http://pub48.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=4086901292&frmid=13&msgid=1039850&cmd=show

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

Hi Knight Michael,

Hebrews:9:27: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

God is merciful and would not kill Moses again.

And the verse you quoted would be fulfilled by Christ Himself who is like Moses.

J S S = M S S the Prophet

Numbers:21:8: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived."

Jesus was hang on the Cross...died as Sin (Serpent upon a pole)

Moses instituted passover for the firstborn. Jesus is the firstborn Passover Lamb Himself.

Jesus brought us aCross the Red Sea (Rapture Sea)

Moses need not be present to confirm...Rapture Event Proves Jesus as the Prophet Himself.

So who else is Greater than Jesus?

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

What about Lazarus and the several other resurrections unto the flesh that occured through scriptures?

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

Hi Amy,

Pl note that the 1st Resurrection is different from the miracles which Jesus did when He raise up Lazarus from the dead.

Lazarus came back from sleep and some of the dead by bodily miracle healings and they came back with their same physical body as a normal human.

Or another possibility is that Christ brought them with Him into Heaven.

We should not equate this as the resurrection of Christ who would not die again. He has conquered Death.
1Corinthians:15:42: "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

Mike,
you missed my whole point. The verses I quoted had Moses telling the people of Israel of Jesus as the prophet who would come after him.

As to God would not kill Moses again...He is God. I am not going to tell God that He cannot do something just because I disagree with it from a human perspective. How is it merciful for the two witnesses to be put to death and their bodies left in the streets. How was it merciful for any of the Old Testament prophets to be tortured and killed?

These events must take place to fulfill scripture. So whoever the identity of the second witness is, they will be martyred and resurrected to prove that their authority and ministry came from God alone. We know that one of the witnesses is Elijah. And yes he was taken up to heaven while still living. Enoch however was a gentile. The purpose for Daniel's 70th week is to turn the focus back to Israel.

I just do not see any authority in Israel listening to a gentile talking about Jesus. But Moses and Elijah are another story.

I personally do not have a view on the identity of the two witnesses. Yes, Elijah probably has the most support. However, there is another school of thought that I find interesting about Elijah that I have included on my website, along with the other possible candidates here:

http://www.trackingbibleprophecy.com/rapture3.php#resurrections

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

The resurrection of the dead in the Old Testament were not raised to glorified bodies but rather were raised into restored physical bodies. Same with some from the New Testament.

1 Kings 17:17-24 - Elijah raises the widow's son back from the dead

2 Kings 4:34-35 - Elisha raises a woman's son back from the dead

2 Kings 13:20-21 - dead man cast into Elijah's grave is brought back to life.

Mark 5:22-43 - Daughter of Jairus raised back to life.

John 11:11-44 - Jesus raises Lazarus back to life.

Acts 9:36-43 - Peter raises Dorcas back to life.

Acts 20:9-12 - Paul raises Eutychus back to life.

Who says that Moses will take part in the 1st resurrection at the rapture? I believe that some of the Saints already took part in the 1st resurrection back in Matthew 27, but the rest will not be resurrected until the Tribulation. This could possibly be with the rapture of the Church, or after the Tribulation with the gathering of the Jewish elect in Matthew 24. we cannot pinpoint exactly when.

I discuss this in much more in detail in the following two excerpts:

http://www.trackingbibleprophecy.com/rapture.php#reconciled
http://www.trackingbibleprophecy.com/rapture2.php#elders

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

Hi Amy,

Regarding the timing of the 2 witnesses at the Rapture and the 144k sealed Israelites...
The sealing of the 144k saints from the 12 tribes of Israel does not mean that they only live for 1260days and there was not mentioned that they were raptured mid-trib-period.

Revelation:12:6: "And the woman(144k Israelites) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore (1260)days.

This was why 2 witnesses were left in Jerusalem to preach for 1260days.

Revelation:11:3: "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore (1260) days, clothed in sackcloth."

Then after sometime within 1260days...The Dragon came down to Earth and Christ has won the war in heaven...

Revelation:12:13: "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

This time...witnesses was killed and the woman (Israel's 144k) fled again...2nd time(times)

Revelation:12:14-16: "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

Hi Amy,

Moses resurrected with the rest of the dead when Christ was resurrected.
Matthew:27:52,53: "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
Moses is great saint right?

If Moses was dead...why did he has to come back again to die a 2nd time? Should Jesus come and die again?

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

The death of the Two Witnesses has to happen in the first half of Daniel's 70th week. The Antichrist is not given authority to kill whomever he wishes until the last 42 months. Likewise the deaths of the two witnesses are rendered moot and pointless if they occur after Christ's return. Also their deaths are celebrated by the world. I cannot see that happening after Jesus has returned.

Lastly the whole point of their testimony is to restore the people of Israel. They will have fled to the wilderness for the last 42 months and those who would not take the mark of the beast will be killed. So who would the two witnesses be witnessing to? It only makes sense if they come in the first half not the last half.

I don't believe that Elijah will have a separate mission. He will be on the mission that God has given him. Along with the second witness whoever that may be. There are plenty of arguments for Elijah and Moses.

1.)Appearance at the mount of transfiguration
2.)The devil attempting to steal Moses remains...Why?
3.)The fire coming down from heaven and drought
4.)The waters being turned to blood and plagues sent out.
5.)Symbolically the Old Testament is referred to as the Law and the Prophets. Moses and Elijah are the best individuals to choose to represent both.
6.)Even the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus speaks about sending Moses back from the dead, which could be prophetic.

It is for all of these reasons that I hold to them as the best candidates.

Mike,
If Moses comes back from the dead its because God told him to. This has nothing to do with Jesus who is in a glorified body.

Jesus was sacrificed once for all. He does not need to die a second time. If Moses is the second witness then he will come back because that is what God wishes. If it is not Moses but some other Saint, ditto. If it is not Moses but some other prophet, ditto.

Knight Michael,

Is Enoch a gentile? He walked with God and God was pleased.
Hebrews:11:5: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death (this could mean not yet); and was not found, because God had translated (time delay) him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

Enoch is grand father of Abraham who was father the of Arabs and grandfather of hebrews so Enoch is qualified to preach to Arabs too. Muslims are waiting for someone like Enoch too whom they believe in their Koran.

Should God only preach to Israelites in the Tribulation Period? God is God of All Flesh...God loves all mankind.

Regarding the death of these 2 saints...It is like what you said...God has His perfect plans for Enoch&Elijah because they were taken halfway...so that they could finish their testimony in the last days. They are great men of God. I would rather be like Enoch to die this glorious death if given a choice.

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

Knight Michael, I encourage you to read the links I posted above about the timing of the two witnesses. I believe there is an overlap. It is purely an assupmtion that we need to put their ministry strictly in one half or the other. I present a lot of evidence against this notion. As I explain, the timing that makes the most sense is for their ministry to start toward the end of the first half of the Tribulation.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

I did read your links Amy.

I disagree with you that the third temple has to be complete before the Two Witnesses can arrive. I agree with you that the covenant with the many will allow the rebuilding of the temple. But this will not take 3.5 years to build. Many believe they can have the temple built in 6-12 months. I don't know whether the Two Witness begin their testimony at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. All scriptures say is that Elijah will come before the Day of the Lord.

Whether their is a gap between the Rapture and Daniel's 70th week beginning, that I do not know.
All I do know is that it makes the most sense for them to arrive in the first half rather than the last half for the reasons I listed above. Whether that time overlaps is a whole other issue. As I don't plan on being here that is pure speculation.

Hi Amy,

pl note that the first half 1260days may already be overlapping into the 2nd half because I said before that God has shortened the days...maybe the whole 7years are only 2300+days. So we need not argue whether 1st half or 2nd half...1260days could be >0.5 TribulationDays according to God's own calendar.
Our earth may spin faster 7 rounds around the sun and even the moon's day in different days per month. so God is absolutely correct in using 42months for the 2nd period.

We need not say for sure when the abomination starts because this is still unknown and yet to be revealed after our rapture.

However once we see (in heaven) the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel...we can count (in heaven) the 1290days and 1335 days for blessed hope for the left behind saints(who are still on earth).

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

Really?

The angel has John measure the Temple and tells him that it will be trampled for 42 months. This is clearly the 2nd half of the Tribulation after the covenant is broken. Then immediately we are told that the two witnesses will prophecy for 1,260 days, which is also 42 months.

Revelation 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”



I don't disagree with this at all. I just don't see where the scriptures here tell us that the two witnesses show up the day the Temple is complete. Rather, the flow is that the Temple is standing when they arrive, and the Holy city will be tread approximately the same period of time that they will be preaching.




This is why I am intrigued by this other school of thought regarding Elijah's ministry. Everything seems to fit better with Elijah coming privatly to the Jews right after the rapture and before Daniel's 70th week begins, with two other people filling the role for the witnesses.

Like I said, I have not taken a firm view on this, but in light of the other evidence for the two witnesses' ministry to cover most of the 2nd half of the Trib, I remaining open to the possibility.

If Elijah is one of the two witnesses' then the evidence is on the side of the "day of the Lord" in Malachi being the actual day Christ returns, not the entire Tribulation period.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

I'm pretty confident that the abomination of desolation is 1,260 days before the day Jesus returns.

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

It doesn't make sense for it to be more or less, because this is the number of days the remnant will be protected. Any more days for the Trib and the remnant will be unprotected. Any less days for the Trib, why would they need to be protected?

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

Hi Amy,

Woman fled 1260days in the 1st half. see verse 6
then woman fled again after dragon came down to earth for a time,times, and half a time in verse14.

so abomination could be somewhere in between the 2 portions...right?

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

Hi Amy,

Revelation:11:2: "...and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months."

it is the city (Not temple) that they tread under foot for 42months...may not necessary mean 1260days and not necessary be in the 2nd half of trib.


Do you see that they are now dividing the Temple mount and Jerusalem?
Obama has already made much progress and it could happen immediately to gain(exchange/divide land for) peace and safety.

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

It is my understanding that the leaving out of the Temple's Outer Court for measurement is due to this area being given over to the gentiles. Most likely because the Dome of the Rock is in the way. This is one of the impediments to the Temple being rebuilt.

The Psalm 83 war would overturn that as the Temple Mount Area would once again be under Israel's jurisdiction as the winner of this war.

The trodding of the city underfoot for 42 months by the Gentiles is a reference to the Great Tribulation. This does not necessarily meant that it precedes the Two Witnesses arrival on the scene as a chronological event.

Jesus spoke of the year of the Lord's favor leaving out the Day of Vengeance that was in the same verse. (Isaiah 61:2) Because the first part had been fulfilled with Jesus first advent and the second was a future event.

Scriptures tell us that the two witnesses are killed by the beast that arises out of the Abyss. This is after the Antichrist is mortally wounded and then appears to come back to life, indwelt by Satan. This event happens in the middle of the week.

Revelation 11:7(NASB)
When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

Revelation 13:3(NASB)
I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

Revelation 17:8(NASB)
"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.

Revelation 9:11(NASB)
They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

Abbadon is Hebrew for Destroyer. Apollyon is Greek for Destroyer.

Isaiah 16:4(NASB)
"Let the outcasts of Moab stay with you; Be a hiding place to them from the destroyer." For the extortioner has come to an end, destruction has ceased, Oppressors have completely disappeared from the land.

Boy, I could write a whole dissertation on the Day of the Lord. It encompasses more than a single day. As seen by Peter's reference to the Day of the Lord seeing the heavens and earth melt with fervent heat. This takes place at the end of the Millennium.

2 Peter 3:10(NASB)
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

It depends on the context. Sometimes it refers to the day of Christ return, sometimes the Tribulation period, and sometimes all the way thru the Millennium.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

Then why else are these tied together in scripture? It seems you are incorporating a preconceived idea to take the flow out of order.



But how long after the acsending out of the abyss. There is an assumption made here that it is immediately after the antichrist ascends out of the pit. There is nothing here in Scripture prohibiting the killing of the two witnesses nearly 3 1/2 years later.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

Like I pointed out to Knight Michael, these two are clearly tied together in Scripture. It seems obvious to me that the 42 months is in the Great Tribulation and the 1,260 days also being 42 months in back to back sentences should cover the same time period. To not see the clear connection here and say they may not be the same time period, appears to be inserting the preconceived idea that the ministry has to be in the first half.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

I'm really not understanding why it is popular to make the assumption that because the 2nd half of the Tribulation is 1,260 days, that the two witnesses' ministry must fit in one half or the other. Because the witnesses can't die the day Jesus returns it is then assumed it MUST be the first half.

Yet when we look at this passage in Revelation 11, where it clearly shows that the 42 month treading of Jerusalem (which is the 2nd half), is in same thought as the arrival of the two witnesses whose ministry is also 42 months; specifially 1,260 days, it is overlooked or assumed they are not connected!

Do you see the assumptions made for these preconceived ideas?I realize this is the popular interpretation, but it doesn't mean it is right. In fact, I've seen a handful of respectible teachers come around to the view that the ministry overlaps the two. My pastor was one of them, and showed me why I was in error, based on my assumptions I was making, which was obviously influenced by the popular teaching.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

This is a real good discussion on the who,what, when, how and why of the two witnesses. I believe that Knight Michael has covered the points of scripture very well and Amy too has much to add to our understanding of this portion of the final 7 years before the second coming of Christ.

I personally believe that scripture is quite clear that the two witnesses have their ministry during the first half of the 7 years and here is why.

Chapter 11 of Revelation gives most of the details of the ministry of the two witnesses.

Verse 1 tells use that there will be a new temple with an alter (for animal sacrifice) and people will worship there. The only people who worship in the Temple of God are the Jewish people.

Verse 2 tells us that the area outside the Temple mount will be controlled by the gentile world for 42 months (which is 1260 days)

Verse 3 says AND, the two witnesses will conduct their ministry for 1260 days (which is 42 months). The mention of the two time lines with an AND between the two statements means that this is one and the same.

Verse 7 says that when the two witnesses FINISH their MINISTRY (to the Jews from the Temple mount) that Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit and kills them. So, if their ministry is 3 1/2 years long and they are killed when Satan is released from the bottomless pit, how long does Satan rule by indwelling the antichrist before the end of the 7 years tribulation which is Daniel 70th week???

Answer: Look at verse 14 of Chapter 11. It says that with the appearance of Satan who kills the two witnesses the SECOND woe is complete and the THIRD woe comes quickly.

The very next verse is the sounding of the 7th trumpet which signals the start of the WRATH of God. (V18)

Now, look at chapter 12 and verse 12. This is the THIRD woe when Satan (AKA, the Devil, the Dragon) comes down to Earth having great wrath.
And the woman (Israel) flees into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years (Verse 14)

The "ministry" of the AntiChrist last for 3 1/2 years (42 months, 1260 days) and starts when Satan is cast down to Earth from the bottomless pit and enters into the AntiChrist and gives him His authority which last for 42 months. (see Chapter 13 verses 1 thru 10.

During this final 3 1/2 years, the full wrath of God is poured out upon the unbelieving and unrepentant world. Look at Chapter 15 and 16.

15:1 The seven LAST judgments are poured out in order to complete Gods wrath. This 7 "bowl" judgments comes out of the 7th trumpet and start at the beginning of the rule of the antichrist immediately after the two witnesses finish their ministry, are killed, then resurrected up to heaven.

We also know that the remnant of Israel flees into the wilderness and is supernaturally protected for 42 months starting at the end of the two witnesses ministry. (AC enters temple and declares himself God)

Since Satan through the person of the AntiChrist is in full control of the world during the final 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation, and the believing remnant of Israel is removed to safety for this full time of Gods wrath, it is very apparent that the two witnesses must have their ministry during the first half the Daniels 70th week.

One other interesting scripture I would like to point out which, I think, brings full disclosure to the timing of the two witnesses. It is Verse 8 of Chapter 15 where it states that the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power and NO ONE was able to enter the temple until the 7 last plagues (bowls of wrath) were completed.

In other words, there will be no more opportunity for salvation during the time of Satans rule on Earth which is the last 3 1/2 years or the 7 year tribulation. The time of Atonement will be over at the midpoint so there will be no need for any witnesses. I don't see how it could be any clearer than that.

Tom

Email: tparbar@gmail.com

We agree that the 42 months of the treading of Jerusalem is the same time as the two witnesses' ministry then? But the covenant is not broken until the 2nd half. Jerusalem will be in Israel's posession until the antichrist takes over. Therefore the treading of the Holy city will be the 2nd half of the Tribulation.



The scriptures do not say that the antichrist immediately goes to kill the witnesses upon coming out of the pit. The order of events is the resurrection of the antichrist and then the killing of the witnesses, but there are no specifics on how much time is between the two scripturally.



There is a huge problem concerning the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments and timing of the witnesses' ministry in the first half. Here are the reasons from my website:

http://www.trackingbibleprophecy.org/revelation.php

The 2nd and 3rd Bowl Judgments turn all the bodies of water to blood. Mankind will have a matter of days, to maybe weeks, to survive after these two Judgments alone. If the Trumpet Judgments were in the first half of the Tribulation, then you would have a period of almost 3 1/2 years during the "Great Tribulation", where there would not be any direct Judgments from God until the end of the Great Tribulation; other than giving Satan authority to rule and overcome the Saints. Surely the antichrist's rule is not greater than Judgments from God. In other words, why would Jesus characterize the last 3 1/2 years as "great" (Matthew 24:21), if two thirds of God's Judgments are poured out in the first half and the last third in the final days of the Tribulation?

It makes more sense for the Seal Judgments and their continuing, and worsening, consequences to cover the first half of Daniel's 70th Week. The Trumpet and Bowl Judgments would then cover the 3 ½ years known as the "Great Tribulation". This would continue the pattern of "birth pangs" increasing in frequency and intensity, where the worst occur in the last 3 ½ years. That being said, there is nothing in Scripture that prohibits the Trumpet Judgments overlapping both halves of Daniel's 70th week. In other words, the 21 Judgments could be spread across the whole 7 years. However, the Seal Judgments appear to be released in rapid succession near the beginning of the 7 years with the consequences continuing, and worsening, through the whole Tribulation.

The two witnesses' ministry begins after the Temple is rebuilt and ends with the 7th Trumpet Judgment. Because the 7 year covenant in Daniel 9 is broken by the defiling of the Temple, this would suggest the permission to build the Temple is in the covenant itself. Since the two witnesses arrive on the scene after the Temple is standing, then their ministry would not begin right at the beginning of the Tribulation.

The fact that the holy city will be "tread...underfoot for forty-two months" by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2) right before the beginning of the two witnesses' ministry, points to it starting near the middle of the Tribulation. During the first half of the Tribulation, the Jews will live in Jerusalem under the protection of the covenant (Daniel 9:27). That is, until the antichrist breaks the covenant in the middle of the Tribulation. The second half, or 42 months, of the Tribulation is when Jerusalem will be taken over by the antichrist and the Gentiles, as the Jewish remnant flees to the mountains. In the context of Revelation 11 then, the two witnesses come on the scene just as Jerusalem is about to be taken over, nearing the middle of the Tribulation.

There is no verse in the Bible that explicitly tells us that the first half of the Tribulation is exactly the same number of days as the last half (1260 per Revelation 12:6). However, the Hebrew word "uchtzi" in Daniel 9:27 usually translated "midst" or "middle" literally means "half of", which would indicate that the first half of the Tribulation is 1,260 days, mirroring the second half. That being said, just because the two witnesses' ministry is the same number of days as half of the Tribulation, we cannot make the assumption that it has to fit into one half or the other. There is nothing I can find in Scripture that would prohibit their ministry overlapping the two halves of the Tribulation.

I encourage you to check out the graphs I have on my the link I posted above, especially the one concerning the "Half hour of silence".



Don't you see, all the underlined portions are not proofs, they are conclusions based on assumptions.



As I show above, the Bowl Judgments cannot cover any greater time than days to a few weeks before Jesus returns. Otherwise, "no flesh would be saved". The 10 days between Trumpets and Atonement would fit nicely.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

At least we're agreeing there's two different 'time periods happening in the Trib, the first half and the second.

The first half of Daniels 'week' I think, is when the 2 witnesses 'rain down fire from Heaven. The ac can't overpower that move while the 2 witnesses 'make war' with him.

Yet we read in the 2nd half, an overwhelming power of the Beast and the False Prophet in action with their fake fire. . . "Who is able to make war with [the Beast]?" the 2 witnesses have to be gone in the 2nd half. Their 1,260 days of ministry will have ended at God's command, making Way for the ac's last attempt to be 'god'.

On the other hand, every antichrist "type" in the Bible has always had opposition in the form of prophets througout the Bible. There is probably a good reason that the 2 witnesses need to be supernaturally protected. Who's to say the antichrist himself tries to kill the witnesses until the end of the Tribulation. The 2 witnesses are not making war, they are simply prophesying and only harm those that try to harm them. That is self defense, not war.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

Donna, I see what you are saying, but this is human reasoning and goes against the more concrete evidence that shows that the witnesses' ministry will overlap the 42 months that Jerusalem will be tread (the is undoubtedly in the Great Tribulation). This is the main point, but as I showed above, there are other reasons to back up this point including the fact that the Bowl Judgments have to be poured out at the very end of the Tribulation and not spread out over 3 1/2 years as many assume.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

For discussion or educational purposes only.

This chart from Clarence Larkin may help everyone visualize the timing of things. It's the best visual layout of Daniel's 70th Week that I've ever seen, and it was done almost 100 years ago by an architect in Philadelphia.


(Click to ENLARGE)

I tend to agree with AbeOwitz, Knight Michael & Tom's points. I think the 2 witnesses will show up at the beginning & could even assist in the rebuilding of the temple.

This is something my father always would mention - their possible role in the rebuilding process. Some even believe that Moses may bring the location of the items from the Tabernacle with him to prove who he is.

These locations of the Temple & Tabernacle treasures were written in the copper & silver scrolls. More on that here: http://www.copper-scroll-project.com/ Long story short... they have the scrolls detailing the items & locations. They're just trying to verify the starting point, and that would unlock all of these original items for use in the temple. Plus, it would settle once & for all the question of the ownership of the Temple Mount, and also bring in what some estimate as billions of dollars worth in gold & other precious items.

The 2 Witnesses' participation in the rebuilding is highly debatable, though. I've heard some say that the 2 Witnesses will be pointing away from the Temple & toward Yeshua, so they may have nothing to do with it except to be there on the Mount to preach the truth about Yeshua / the New Covenant.

But, as I mentioned on another thread... I think the very best reason for the two witnesses showing up @ the front of the 7 years is foreshadowing from the story of Joshua & the Battle of Jericho. When were the 2 spies (witnesses) sent into the land? The Bible is filled with examples like this that reinforce future stories.

The 7 Seal Judgments are referenced in the people marching around the city 7 times. The 7 Trumpet Judgments are foreshadowed in the 7 times they marched around the city on the 7th day.

But, before all of this, the spies were sent into the city.



Check around the 11:00 mark here. I do not agree with everything in the video (especially the rapture timing ), but there sure are a lot of interesting correlations.

So, I tend to think somewhere in the 1st half. My dad & many other teachers have taught this. Dad always leaned to the very start day of Tribulation. Too much will be happening during the last 1/3rd. Once the Bowl Judgments begin, no one will have time for anything but running for their lives. The time for convincing people & presenting the gospel will be done.

Plus, I do think it makes sense for the Abomination of Desolation & the killing of the 2 witnesses to happen very close to one another (within months), if not at the same time. After the AOD & the full indwelling of Satan in the man of sin, the work of the 2 Witnesses should be complete. The remnant will have fled, and there will be few left to witness to at that point.

Here are the chart's for the other view:

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

I feel that everyone is presenting arguments based on assumptions, human reasoning, possible parallels, and charts that look good. This last one bothers me the most. I asked a Sunday School teacher once why he placed the two witnesses' ministry in the 1st half of the Tribulation. He promptly showed me this Larkin chart and said because it looked good. Also, prophetic paralles should NEVER be used to develop doctrine, but only to support what is already clearly known.

I believe I have made a clear scriptural case here, but it is not getting through the assumptions and human reasoning here and it's starting to get frustrating. I think it's time for me to rest my case.

Please don't get me wrong. I was on the same side of the fence as y'all, but when I took the time to throw out all the assumptions and really take the time to rightly divide the Word here, I was shown my error and how much I let the popular interpretation influence me. Please look at the whole picture here instead of one piece at a time.

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

Amy, we all make assumptions including your assumption that the 7 vials are a short term event because no flesh would be left on Earth otherwise.

That is assuming that the effects of the vials takes place all at once in all areas of the Earth. For me, that is a wrong assumption. They could just as well take place slowly and build in effect over years. I will not be condescending and tell you that yours is coming from human reasoning as you have stated about our studies.

This issue is not a doctrinal issue of salvation, virgin birth, trinity, inerrancy of scripture etc. and so we should not dwell on trying to "prove" our points of view.

This all takes place after we are with our glorious and loving Bridegroom and we will not care a smidgen about when or how this all takes place. We will be too focused on Jesus and all He has prepared for us in His Fathers house.

I hope your version is the right one Amy. I just want to focus on Him...and I know you do too.

Love and appreciate you sis,

Tom

Email: tparbar@gmail.com

Whoa! I was just pointing out a pattern... Didn't expect such a heated discussion...

But I stand by the pattern. 2 witnesses at the transfiguration (new bodies), 2 witnesses at the tomb (dead in Christ rise first), and 2 witnesses at the harpatzo (ascension into heaven).

Interesting that Mary Magdalene thought that Jesus was the gardener at first. (i.e. garden of Eden?)

There's something here... can't quite put my finger on it, but He's telling us something...

As far as the series of judgments go, there is no overlap other than that the last of the series begins the next. This is shown in scripture that the seven trumpets do not begin to blow until after the seventh seal is opened. Likewise the bowl judgments are referred to as the last. They cannot be last if other judgments come after.

Revelation 8:1-2(NASB)
When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

Revelation 8:6(NASB)
And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.

Revelation 15:1(NASB)
Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.

I'm guessing it is because the women came so early, there is no one else who would have had a reason to be there.

I don't see the debate as heated so much as lively. I am pleased that there was debate on scripture without name calling or finger pointing. No reason we cannot reason amongst ourselves as long as we respect one another.

I appreciate the discussion, also. I believe I read through all of it; both threads. All points of view. It is very hard to analyze a book using zero assumptions when it is "sealed up" . If there is a way, dissecting the assumptions will be key.

Touching on a few points:

What if "42 months" is used because those periods are not 1260 days? Gives a bit of wiggle room, maybe.

In a sense, the 70th week breaks down into the wrath of Satan and the wrath of God. The resurrection of the two witnesses will be a very big "uh-oh" moment, much like the Flood.

At some point, everyone on Earth hides from God's wrath. When do they all become believers in God?

A gardener is like a keeper of a vineyard and a sower of seeds?

I am sorry that this interesting topic became heated up in some eyes...

I am a Chinese (in another timezone side of the world) I applogise for many errors in my English or statements which may not seem polite.

I have studied Amy's website few years and has build alot of my findings and learnings from them and had improved on my research work for the timing of blessed hope.
Amy has presented many very good points which almost the whole world got wrong preconceived ideas before they try to figure out the scriptures.

I believe there are many dual meanings for every Word of God when we divide it correctly.
When heard at face value, the word could mean differently to different groups of hearers.

Amy has presented her findings very well in almost all aspects in her website topics.

For me, I have personally research and found that many people had come up with many good points too and we have to be opened in our mindset and stand in the other person's shoe to look at the point in another view.

The 42 months may be a special period of time. No one should say it must be 1260days. Even if I quote I am coming in this month...anyday I come within 31days is correct right?

So it could even mean that the 7years is shortened to 2300days.
What if God has spinned up this earth (note earth was slowed down by Noah's flood) during this rapture event causing the world to see heaven departing as a scroll?
people are still surviving this sudden polar shifting possibly right? In this manner...can the day be only 16hrs since 1 third day/night without light. meaning 33% lost in time of a day.

then 7years of these shortened period would be God's 1335+days calendar according to Amy's new chart that she presented.

I love and admire Amy's research and hope she could add my findings in her website so as to share with the left behind ones...

RITA has lots of news/information which I gathered and learnt and I love to discuss about our different views.

It may be that so many beliefs and ideas that could be God's way to hide the truth from Satan the son of perdition.

Someone even mentioned: "that no man, neither the son, but the father" this son of the verse may even mean son of perdition...because Jesus and the Father is One.

I believe that Jesus only know the Rapture Day/Time after His Resurrection and receiving the Revelation Scroll and so fulfilled His word.
Jesus may not know while He was still man on earth before His resurrection, so Matthew did not even mention that "Son of Man" know not.

The Word of God has to be studied...not reading only...to find the meanings of the hardsayings.
This is to confuse Satan right?

Only a wise God could code and decode His own word. Thank God we are bornagain Christians and we have the mind of Christ

1Corinthians:2:16: "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

I'm relieved to see that many of you saw this as a "lively chat. But for those that didn't, I apologize as I feel like I came off rather gruff last night about all this. I didn't get enough sleep and was kind of in a funk all night, so I probably shouldn't have involved myself in this discussion at all last evening.

I hope most of you see that I have a passion for finding the Truth in God's Word and it is not about me trying to prove that I am right. However, sometimes I can get frustrated, particularly with this topic for some reason, when I feel that the scriptural support has been brushed aside in favor of a personal or popular view that doesn't really hold up to the scriptural support. My goal is always to try to share in a way that can be understood, that which I am confident is true, and present all the possibilities in the areas I'm not confident. I'm frustrated at myself for not being able to present this clearly enough. I long for the day that we will be able to understand everything in God's Word!

I'm not sure I consider this an assumption. Logic? Yes. From a scientific point of view, it is a fact that if all the water on Earth becomes blood, not only will "no flesh survive" past a few weeks, neither will any living creatures survive. In short order, all plant life will cease to exist as well. The Lord would truly have to perform a miracle to sustain life on earth for longer than a few weeks after all the water is turned to blood. God is Sovereign and can most certainly do that, but He tells us, rather, that He has to return and end the Tribulation in order to save any flesh. In fact, many believe that "cutting short the days" simply means that if the Lord allowed the consequences of the Judgments to continue to their natural end, "no flesh would be saved".

That being said, my point wasn't to throw out all logic and reasoning, but to be careful. I think we can agree that we need to look to the plain text of the scriptures instead of making a decision based soley on human reasoning or assumptions. My intent was certainly not meant to be condensending in any way. I expressed that I was frustrated because the assumptions and human reasoning were the only reasons being given to back up the timing of the witnesses' ministry, while none had clear scriptural support.

Again, I don't understand why it is easier to make the assumption about the 1,260 pointing to one half of the Trib or the other, where the context in Revelation 11 clearly shows us that the 1,260 days of the witnesses' ministry will parallel the 42 months that Jerusalem will be trodden. This is no doubt the same 42 months that the antichrist will rule after taking over the Holy city in Daniel 11 as Jerusalem will be in Jewish hands under the covenant. When I was shown this, it all made so much more sense, without the baggage of any assumptions.

I really don't like to beat a dead horse about this, but this is the clearest scriptural support for the two witnesses' ministry covering most of the 2nd half of the Trib, and it is constantly overlooked in favor of forcing the mininistry neatly in the first half without the scriptural support to do so.



You are correct, and again I apologize if I came off rather gruff. That wasn't my intention. Thank you for your courteous response. And thank you everyone else for supporting this "lively discussion". That is a good perspective to have. I feel better now and hopefully I will sleep better today. Thanks!

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

Thank you for your kind words Mike, but I would like to encourage you to share your findings right here at RITA.

I made the decision to not get into any date setting on my website. Frankly, I would lose an audience that may otherwise be interested in what I have to offer. I come here to share in datesetting.

For me it is not about being right about a date, but more that each potential date keeps my eyes more focused on the Lord and His soon return and I learn more about each feast as the dates pass. My website is based on seeking scriptural truth, not possible parallels and dates.

I do think everyone here would be interested in seeing your material Mike. Go ahead and post away!

Email: amy@trackingbibleprophecy.org

Website: www.trackingbibleprophecy.org

You guys got me thinking about what it would be like to have Enoch here (yes- I think it will be him and Elijah who come back). Enoch would be able to tell what it was like before the flood, exactly who the Nephelim were, who built the pyamids, what the dynosaurs were like. An eye wittness report.

In Rick Joyner's book, The Harvest (1989), he told that the harvest would be the times of the jews and the Gentiles. Not just the harvest of the jews. Thus, Enoch is the prophet for the non-Jews and Elijah the prophet to the non Jews

1 point to note is that...Moses was there with Christ & Elijah during His transfiguration and could have resurrected and so need not die again...

I like the video of Joshua attacking Jericho...could this be 7seals opened+7trumpets blown before the wall of JerUSAlem fell...so no more walls...then Ezekiel's 38 saying no wall in israel fulfilled?

Ezekiel:38:11: "And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
"

then Trumpets marked the Start of 7years...7vials the End of 7th year

Not 1 Angel blowing 7 times but all at once