I just read the "Citric Question" thread and am now more confused than ever. I've never used the stuff, but would like to try it the next time I'm lucky enough to dump some cans. Where can you score limited quantities of the powdered/ crystal form of the stuff without a major expenditure, and is that significantly better than the lemon juice concentrate form? Why did Marc Tracy (I think it was him) call it a failed experiment? I seem to recall reading good things about it on this site. I understand not to use it on metallic cans and Crowntainers, but I almost never find Crowntainers in southern West Virginia anyway. Are there other can types or conditions when I should stick to oxalic? As usual, any info is greatly appreciated. Thanks, John.

Hi John,
I can send you a small quantity of near-pure citric acid powder
if you want it. My experience with it has been ok in my limited trials, but there seems
to be a huge variation in the procedure people employ to use this acid
,and oxalic as well, but that the citric is more finicky and can be very
destructive in some instances. I'm sure others will chime in...if you want a couple pounds,
'email me at this mjmenke but at verizon.net.

You might be able to buy a 1 LB container at your local Pharmacy. You might have to call around to a couple of Rx's to find it, and it could cost you up to $10. Rx grade Citric is usually the powdered form.

Citric is safer than Oxalic, and cleans seams and rims better. I have been using it for years and have only had 2 cans with problems. I have cleaned Silver crowntainers and Metalic cans with no problems. Its all in the method used which includes the amount of Citric acid used in the solution, the length of time soaking, and the heat of the water.

If you want guidance email me and I'll provide you with the method I use.

CANDOG

Another place for small quantities is at a home-brewing supply shop. Some liquor stores have home brewing supplies. Citric acid is used in wine making and you can get it in small quantities if you want to try it out.

Hey tom,
I know you have explained in here before but why cant you write up a story on your method. I still have some to use up and do like experimenting. You always take a needling from us oxalic guys, prove us wrong!
Mike "oxalic sniffer" schnare

Yes, it was me who posted the anti-citric comments. I expiremented extensively with it over the span of a couple years. I don't like the way it takes the finish off of lids and seams, leaving them a dull greyish color. And if the cans aren't 100% solid, it will eat through the rust to the point that you get pinholes in the cans before they're finished cleaning. I also had the misfortune of completely ruining an Old Ox Head Ale Crowntainer that was grade 2 when I pulled it out of the ground. Citric tore the paint right off the can in 20 minutes. Obviously Oxalic is more volatile, but if you use it in a well-ventilated area and use rubber gloves, you pretty much eliminate this as a problem.

I've had only very minor problems with fading using Oxalic, and once I figured out how to use it that stopped. Extreme heat and time appear to be the cause of most problems. My experience is that you can't mix Oxalic too strong now matter how hard you try - you can only use water that's too hot or leave the cans in too long. Hot tap water has never given me problems, but I know some people boil the water, and that's just asking for problems.

Marc

Well I guess I'll kill this thread.

Mark Tracey says he "experimented" with citric for a couple of years....I've been using it since 1981 when I started collecting and dumping. First as lemon juice, then "Sour Salt" and moved into powdered citric in 1990. Mark talks about the differnt techniques needed using oxalic...It's not much different than citric.

I've said it here before, if you get bad results with citric, you are using too much acid, too hot of water, or leaving them in to long. The ratio is less than 1/4 cup of Citric to a gallon of water. I clean 60 mystery cans with about 8 gallons on water in a 12 gallon cooler with less than a cup of citric. I use hot tap water, and let it soak 20-24 hours. Now if you are just cleaning a little rust off of a good can, use a smaller container, "warm" water, and watch it while it soaks! Just like Oxalic! You can use citric in COLD water too! Silver crowntainers will clean in citric using COLD water. Variations of this procedure are needed for different types of cans.

So why use citric instead on oxalic. Well, there are no fumes to inhale, no ventilation issues, no danger to children, it will not eat through your drane pipes, and it will not kill the bateria in your Ceptic tank, so there's no need to neutralize the acid before you dump it.

If you like rusty looking rims and seams use oxalic. If you like your seams and rims cleaner use citric. I think part of the issue is if you use citirc you HAVE to scrub off the seams, lids and rims and thats a little more work. Whenever I trade for or buy a can that is cleaned in Oxalic I always resoak them in citric (for a couple hours) and they always come out cleaner.

Once again it's personnal preference. The long term effects of breathing in Oxalic fumes is not really known, but there has been a guy that died of cancer that used Oxalic heavily, i.e. boiling an Oxalic bath in his home and breathing the fumes. With all the cancer causing agents out there, I prefer not to take chances with Oxalic, for any reason.

Some day I may write this up.....Again.

CANDOG

Two years was plenty of time. I'm a fast learner. Perhaps "expirement" was misinterpreted. I meant that I studied the results, not that I toyed with it. I had concerns after the first year, so I gave citric a closer look and cleaned common cans from the same dumps with both types of acid.

Regardless, it appears that we agree to disagree. And 90% of the dumpers you'll pick up can be cleaned up further with either type of acid. Most people don't leave the cans in until they are finished, and once the cans dry they start to rust again anyhow. Either type of acid should be neutralized to keep the acid from continuing to work on the cans.

Marc