In my mind, if the dead are rising first, they are not in heaven unless this rising would be symbolic in nature. What confuses me is how people have had NDEs and dreams about heaven (which I do not read much of them or believe in all of them), and they see their loved ones who should be in graves. Especially the account from children who are so innocent.

Maybe it is just their bodies are ressurected and made into new bodies and not their spirits.

I'm sure there will be people better equipped to answer this, but here's what I've always heard:

When you die in Christ, your spirit is instantly in heaven. (Paul said that to be absent in the body is to be present with Christ, and Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise THAT DAY.)

When the dead rise, I think it is when they receive their glorified bodies, which will then rejoin their spirits already with Christ.

I also believe this. I believe that we enter into sleep. In the 5th seal, the martyred are crying from below (not from in heaven) and they are told to "rest a little longer." I believe they are "not dead but asleep."

So to me, when Paul made that comment referred to by Cleanslate, that if he is not alive, if he dies, the NEXT thing he will experience is being with Christ. But that does not mean he will not have to wait in sleep for a while before that happens.

I know others will not agree with me, but this is my take. When they are resurrected that is when they receive the breath of life from God again and their spirits are resurrected into a glorified body, then we change, and the Bride as a WHOLE will then enter the bridal chambers.

Email: ryadon@ymail.com

When you become born again of the Spirit of God, your spirit is perfected in Him. Which is why it can cohabit with the Holy Spirit of God. This is the good work He began in you. And it starts training your soul / mind in the way it should go: the path of righteousness for the sake of His name. When you die, your perfected spirit immediately goes to the Lord to be with Him until the day He calls His Bride Home in one big corporate gathering. On that day He will create a new glorified body for you without it's current corrupt nature and your spirit and soul will once again have a physical body, but of a new glorified "spiritual" nature, thus on the Day of Christ Jesus He will complete the good work He began in you. How well your soul / mind listened to the voice of the Holy Spirit via your redeemed spirit will dictate the level of rewards / treasure in heaven you have accumulated in this life. If you spent this life listening to your fallen flesh, then you still have the foundation in heaven (Christ). If you listened well to the Holy Spirit giving back to the Lord on earth, then you'll have accumulated things to give back to the Lord in heaven.

Once we have our glorified bodies, we will presumably be able to interact with both the spiritual realm and the physical realm. Before that point, those who have preceded us in death will apparently be restricted to the spiritual realm. But since that's where our Beloved is hanging out these days, no worries. They're having the time of their eternal lives.

Email: TxThom@raptureintheairnow.com

I have used this passage before, so if you've seen it then please indulge me for using it once more.

The significant thing I want to mention about what Paul is telling us is that this person (usually understood to be himself) was caught up into the third heaven. He does not know whether it was in the body or otherwise. The fact that he does not exclude an out of body experience tells us he knows very well the spirit can be absent from the body.

It is also fair to question whether the out of body reports we hear are genuine. Some of them do not agree with what is known from the Bible and must be rejected. Test all things.

Those who have passed on are not in an unconscious state. Only the body is asleep, not the spirit.

What the conditions are once they enter the hereafter, I cannot say.

agreed, David ~~ the spirits of the redeemed are in Heaven NOW ~ In Christ's Presence forever more~

2 Cor 5:6-8 makes it clear that the true believer is ushered directly into the presence of God upon death.

"to be absent from the body" IS being "present with the Lord."

Remembering what Jesus said to the thief on the cross "today" you will be with Me in Paradise"

Jesus referred to sleep of the believer's body going into the grave til He raises it

each saint passing from this life is NOW in the presence of the Lord.

I am in total agreement with TX Thom (where have you been?) and David R.

Jack Kelley has answered some questions on this:

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/what-was-the-point-of-jesus-going-to-hades/

" 1 Peter 4:6 tells us He also explained the Gospel to believers who had died before the cross, telling them their faith had saved them. No one could enter Heaven before the Lord sprinkled His own blood on the altar there. Instead they went to Paradise to await His coming. After the resurrection He took them to Heaven (Ephes. 4:8 )."

And here's another one regarding paradise:
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/what-is-paradise/

"The word translated “Paradise” comes from the Persian word for a large park or preserve, and was intended to evoke images of the Garden of Eden. It was thought of as a place of peace and comfort. Before the cross it was widely believed to be the side of Sheol (Hades) where the believing dead went to await the coming Redeemer. For this reason the Jews often called it Abraham’s Bosom (Luke 16:19-26) since Abraham is the father of the faithful. It’s where Jesus went between the crucifixion and the resurrection (Luke 23:43). Once He had completed His work as our High Priest (Hebr. 9:11-12), Heaven’s Gates were opened and since then the spirits of believers who die go straight to be with Him there (2 Cor. 5:8 ).

The notion of a third heaven is from Greek thinking. They believed the first heaven is what we call the atmosphere, the visible arch of the sky where the clouds drift. The second heaven is the universe beyond, and the third Heaven is where the throne of God is located.

2 Cor. 12:2-4 appears to connect paradise with the third heaven. Some say this is because early Church fathers believed that the original Garden of Eden still exists in a heavenly place near God’s throne. If so, it would mean that like everything else, the Garden of Eden on Earth was a copy of one in Heaven."

I think once the place Jesus is preparing for us is ready we will be able to inhabit it in our new bodies, which would mean all the dead who are with him in heaven receive their bodies first, then us, then we all get to go to our new home!! yay!!!

vto

I feel like I have a better grasp on all of this and each post just built upon the one before it. This made interesting reading for me. Thanks!

David R., Donna, or TX Thom,
Will my husband know me when I get there? Will I recognize him? Will we get to remain together as husband & wife?

Bump for Patti Day.