Brothers and sisters, my head just hurts. These back and forth discussions between siblings on lots of different Christian boards these days literally causes my head to hurt and my heart to ache.

I'm so tired of the differing opinions on who gets raptured, who is going to hell, who saw whom in hell, how we better hurry and get good enough or we'll be left behind. ARRRGGH! I just want to scream ENOUGH!

Where is the good news of the Gospel? I want that back. I want the truth of what Jesus did for me back.

Anyway, all that to say that Pastor Steve's message is really good this week and helped me with my "headache". I may need another dose though. I may have to listen to it again to absorb all the truth more clearly.

Blessings. I love you guys.

Diane C

http://www.harvestreno.org/messageVideo.asp?id=225&quality=high

Diane C, I have a headache cure for you. Read the "Angels Singing" post. It is good news and then some.

I know what you mean, Diane. If I see a post that I know will afffect me, I won't even open it up. Why? Because the devil has filled me with fear about those issues in the past...losing my salvation, Christians going to hell, etc., and I don't want to be tormented anymore with fear and doubts. It's a weak area with me and the devil knows that, so to protect my heart and spirit I stay away from those controversial discussions at all cost. After years of torment, I am now assured of my salvation, and I don't need my peace in the Lord and assurance as to what He did for me on the cross to be taken away.

I listened to what Steve Hadley had to say, and he is a breath of fresh air. Thanks for posting this, Diane!

You're right T/Sue, that post is good news. We don't hear much about the limitless love of God these days it seems like - at least to me. All I keep reading about is our needing to be Holy, and working on trying to be more Holy, working on being more without spot or blemish, etc. - which sounds suspiciously like a "works" doctrine to me.

Of course we should do our best to be Holy as He is Holy - but we can only do that IN CHRIST, not on our own efforts, and that's the part that keeps getting left out. That's why Pastor Steve's message is so good this week.

Anyway, I know I'm preachin to the choir here, T/Sue - I'm just venting tonight. Thanks for listening!

Lisaleenie, you are a smart lady. All that arguing can get you down. If someone is not sure about their salvation then they have probably not had a strong enough revelation or experience of God's love. If you have ever found yourself wrapped up and filled up with the love that floods down from the throne of heaven, it is enough to wash away every doubt the devil can ever drop on you. In John's letters he says that we can know we are the children of God because His Spirit will bear witness with our spirit. God does not give us a spirit of fear. That comes from another source.

I hear ya Leenie! The devil knows that is a weak area with me to - I grew up with lots of "guilt" being thrown around in the family, so I'm an easy target for that.

That's why I just love Pastor Steve's teachings. They always ring so true to my heart. He always speaks the truth, but he does it with such Love - just as I would expect to hear Jesus teach it.

Hope work is still going good for ya sis!

yes, Pastor Hadley is a fine man of GOD who preaches the truth, doesnt stray from the word,,he is a blessing
GOD bless him richly!!

AMEN, CHRISTinCheryl! I couldn't agree more!

You are right Diane, it is a works doctrine. It is adding to what Jesus said is a finished work. One of God's descriptive names in the Bible is Jehovah Tsidkenu - (may be mispelled) which means "God is my Righteousnes". Jesus IS our righteousness. We fall short of the glory no matter how hard we try. Jesus' blood made the difference and brought us INTO the glory of God. We come before the Father covered in the blood of Jesus. When He sees the blood, He sees us clean.

What about that verse that says God removes our sin as far as the east is from the west. In Isaiah, looking ahead to the cross, he prophesied, "Though our sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow." The thinking behind the idea that we have to somehow ADD something to what Jesus did in my opinion comes from either fear or pride. Neither from God. Hebrews 4 tells the story. We are to come to a place of REST in God -trust, believe, rest. Again, preaching to the choir.

Oh, that is so true, Texas Sue! I now have reassurance of my salvation, but it wasn't always that way with me.

I have always tried so hard to be perfect before God, and when I wasn't and would mess up and blow it, I would beat myself up, and the devil handed me the stick.

I've come out of churches that teach the "works" doctrine and that you could lose your salvation if you weren't "holy enough" (which I wasn't) so that was a vicious cycle for me, reinforcing my fear.

I was always terrified that God would give up on me if I wasn't perfect, so I never felt "good enough" because of one sin or another that I struggled with.

It wasn't until I understood what Jesus did for me on the cross that I was able to get past the fear. I still strive to be as clean before God as I possibly can, but now it's out of love and not fear.

But like you said, fear is from another source, so I stay FAR AWAY FROM THAT SOURCE OR ANY HINT OF IT AS I POSSIBLY CAN!

Thanks, Diane! (I just caught your post right now just as I was responding to Texas Sue.) Work is still going well, praise the Lord!!

So you grew up with guilt too, huh? Bummer, isn't it? The devil just loves to whip on people like us, so that's why we need teaching like Pastor Steve's. It's such a blessing, because he's very scriptural, truthful, but doesn't teach the "works" doctrine. No fear, and no whip.

Thanks again, sis, for posting this!!

Diane C & Lisa, Scott should hear this one as pastor Steve starts off with a couple of really funny Bible jokes/puns. He admits that he likes a good PUN! Who do we know that seems to also like a good pun?

I like this guy Diane. He is just down to earth and real. No pompous, pretentious baloney. Just a regular guy.

You're welcome Leenie. Happy to post Pastor Steve. I think he's gonna be surprised in heaven when he finds out how many lives he touched with his teachings! I hope I get to watch! It will bring him great joy!

T/Sue, what you posted about Jesus being our Righteousness really hit home. Someone posted somewhere else on the board that when Paul was teaching that the unrighteous won't inherit the Kingdom of God, he was writing it to the Believers at the time. Meaning, we Believers better get rightous or we're not gonna get into the kingdom. But how can we get righteous? We are only righteous IN CHRIST. So, if we trust Him as our Savior, then we are already righteous! So, I don't think Paul was saying we had to do works to get righteous, I think he was saying we had to know Christ to be righteous.

Eh, sorry, it's late and my mind is thinking in circles. I'll stop now - LOL

Yeah, Leenie, guilt stinks and I for one, am sick of it! There is therefore now NO condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. I keep hoping that scripture will get more and more real to me.

Can we go home yet??

T/Sue, that's exactly what I thought when Pastor Steve talked about puns. He and Scott are long lost brothers!!! Pastor Steve always cracks me up in his teachings. He really is just so down to earth! His wife, Nicole, is a DOLL too. What a sweet soul she is. And Pastor Steve loves her SO!

Went to bed early last night. Thought I'd add my $.02!

I listen to Pastor Steve every week. Love him. He is a real rabbit! That's a reference from the Velveteen Rabbit! Don't know if you're familiar with it, but that's another subject.

See you guys later.

Cesca

bttt

LOVE "The Velveteen Rabbit"! It's my favorite children's book and I always give that and a stuffed, plush rabbit for gifts at baby showers.

Just my thoughts here, but I don't believe pursing holiness is a works doctrine. I believe Jesus desires for us to go from glory to glory in our Christian walk, which I would go so far to say that 99.99% of those who are on rita do. Pursuing holiness is pleasing to the Lord, in fact we are strongly urged to do just that:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor. 7:1

This does not negate being saved by grace nor does it impute condemnation to the believer. It is the way of the cross and of discipleship to which is required of every true follower of Christ Jesus our Lord.

Melanie, choosing to walk in holiness and not follow the ways of the world is a natural out-growth or inclination of the one who has been born-again and is filled with the Holy Spirit. You are right in what you are saying.

I am referring to the pharasiacal practice or belief that something must be added by us to what Jesus has already done. Jesus paid for our complete and whole salvation. Out of gratitude and according to the new nature that He has given us, we choose to live in cleanness.

To me where the problem comes in is that we have a re-born NEW spirit (new creature in Christ) that is living in a flesh body that is linked to the earth and still subject to a fallen world. That is what we war against - the body of flesh that is contrary and until the rapture - unredeemed. If we fall by yielding to the flesh in a way contrary to holiness there is a remedy. In I John we are told that "If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

That is what Jesus was demonstrating when He washed the feet of the disciples at the last supper. We do get dirty walking through this world but Jesus provided the remedy for this too. The overcoming part is the battle of choosing what our spirit reborn in Christ chooses over what our flesh may pull us toward.

Love you dear Melanie. Good to see you online.

Sue, what a wonderful reply; thank you for that and I can see what you meant now. Of course, we are to submit to the workings of the Holy Spirit in our lives- I believe that is what that verse in 2 Cor. means when it say to cleanse ourselves.

Love you too!

Melanie and Texas Sue, I just love the way the two of you relate to each other....with mutual love and respect.

I so agree with you, Melanie, that we should pursue holiness. It's done with love for the Lord, a hatred of sin, and a desire to be the person that He wants us to be. When we are born again, we have a new nature that desires to be be pleasing to Him and to walk in holiness before Him.

When it becomes "works" is when it's done out of fear of losing salvation and it becomes something we feel as if we HAVE TO DO to appease an imaginiary taskmaster that will throw us in hell if we don't.

Big difference, huh? He wants us to obey Him out of a heart of love and appreciation for what He did for us instead of a terror of punishment. If it's done out of fear, we end up running away from this severe taskmaster we've built up in our minds because there's just no pleasing him.

Very sad. I wonder how many Christians walk away from the Lord in utter despair because they felt as if they could never measure up??? That's what happens when they are taught they could lose their salvation, because they are always wondering when the other shoe is going to drop. That's why I love the OSAS doctrine, it is scriptural, it is true, and it gives peace not torment.

Lisaleenie,

I like what you said here:

That is the difference - the injection of fear and uncertainty that then causes us to feel driven to perform or to be perfect. Then every stumble and every miss step is magnified and the fear increases. You really have a way of saying things that is clear and easy to understand. Love you Leenie!

You gals are just so great to chat with. I was feeling like the odd-ball out, but I see now we are mostly on the same page! Yes, we love Him because He first loved us! Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever. We can trust that His love is always towards us and that He is always for us, encouraging us towards obedience and holiness. Remaining sensitive to the promptings of Holy Spirit, we learn at Jesus' feet, deeper intimacy, what is pleasing and what is displeasing to Him. In this way we learn to abhor the ways of the world; our sin in ever more repugnant. His sweet, joyful, peaceful spirit abiding in us, we desire never to grieve him, and when we do, we are quick to repent. Not feeling condemnation, but conviction. Abiding in Jesus, He in us, relationship; this is what Jesus desires. I just love Him so; His firey love burns in my heart like never before.

Melanie, you put that so well. Conviction is the way Holy Spirit gets our attention, not condenmation. The gentle voice of the Shepherd that leads us away from danger. Can't wait to be home in our permanent "sheep-fold" Melanie!! :)

Melanie and Texas Sue, you two are the best!! I love what you both said.

Love you, sisters!!