Introduction
The following are some reasons for postulating that the Lord may come first for the Bride of Christ and that the Body of Christ is not the same as the Bride of Christ. Godly men and women disagree on this issue so we are wise to not be dogmatic. There is a strong tendency in our Adamic nature to want to be the speaker for God, "You shall be like gods". Nevertheless, God has not given us a spirit of timidity but of power, love and discipline. There is very strong evidence indicating that the Bride will be taken out of the Body of Christ. When Christians are asked "Who is the Bride of Christ?", almost everyone answers, "The Church," or "The Body of Christ," meaning all saved people. However, nowhere in the Bible is the Church called the Bride of Christ. The Church is called His Body in Ephesians 1:22-23 but the Body and the Bride do not seem to be synonymous as has been supposed. The consequences of this, if true, are very significant, sobering and perhaps irreversible. This is a message of warning not of condemnation.

Proverbs 25:2 says "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; but honor of kings is to search out a matter." God's glory is concealed through His Word but the believer as a king-priest should search it out. One of the richest veins of gold and silver in the Bible is the Bride of Christ. It is a mine that is rarely dug into and much priceless metal is to be found there. Gold and silver are generally not found on the surface but are found in deep mines.

Jeremiah 33:3, "Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." We need to ask the Holy Spirit to do that.

Saved through Faith
The Bible says quite clearly and unmistakably, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast" Eph 2:8,9. All of our works of righteousness are as filthy rags when it comes to trying to earn salvation. It can only be accomplished through the blood of Jesus.

Running a Race
Yet the apostle Paul was running a race to win a prize. I Cor. 9:24f says, "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air; But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." Why was Paul concerned about possibly being castaway (disqualified)? This is not a reference to salvation which is by grace through faith and a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. Paul talks about running a race to win a prize. Salvation is not a prize that is won by our efforts.. We run, we strive to obtain a prize, a crown. What crown?

If by any Means
In Phil. 3:11-14, Paul, the man that God used to pen a major portion of the New Testament, wrote. "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before. I press toward the mark for the prize of the HIGH CALLING of God in Christ Jesus." Again these scriptures indicate that there is something that Paul is striving for that he had not yet attained , "If by any means...not as though I had already attained...if that I may apprehend...I count not myself to have apprehended...I press toward the mark for the prize". Salvation is not a prize, it is a free gift. But Paul speaks of a prize that is earned by great diligence.

Bride Makes Herself Ready
In Rev. 19:7-8 it says, "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. (The bride is responsible for making herself ready. Never will you find an example of a groom preparing the bride for the wedding. That is her responsibility.) "And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." Also, the Philadelphians show love and are invited in and the Laodiceans are lukewarm and vomited out. (Strong language from the Lord, isn't it?) A bridegroom would normally pick a bride that was in love with him, not just lukewarm toward him.

Why Study Old Testament Examples?
*Because they are a part of the scriptures given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit which are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness (II Tim 3:16)
*Because they were written for our instruction (Rm. 15:4).
*Because Jesus came to fulfill all that was written of Him in the "law, the Psalms and the Prophets".
*Because Jesus said, "In the volume of the Book it is written of Me." The intricate details point in some fashion to the person, work and glory of Jesus. We know that I Cor. 10:11 tells us that "Now these things happened unto them (Israel) for examples and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (ages) are come." Thus we are justified in looking for correlations in the Old Testament. Indeed the next verse is a warning, "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed (of these examples) less he fall."

Pictures of Bride Selection
Book of Ruth. Ruth (type of the bride) was a gentile who came from Moab. She married Boaz 'a mighty man of wealth and a kinsman redeemer' who came from Bethlehem (a type of Jesus). Boaz had many maidens that he could have chosen but he chose Ruth. It was Naomi (type of the Holy Spirit) who led her out of Moab* (a type of the carnal, self-pleasing life; a land of many idols) to Bethlehem ("House of Bread") and brought her to a position where she was selected by Boaz as his bride. It was Naomi who was encouraging, leading, counseling her. Ruth (bride) would never have been introduced to Boaz (Jesus) without the intimate leading and relationship and trust in Naomi (Holy Spirit). Neither will we without a very intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit, far more intimate than most Christians are walking in today.

(*Moab is of no small concern to the Christian because it is closely tied to the message of the bride. The Church needs to be challenged to come out of the carnal, self-pleasing life with its many idols of frivolity, entertainment, sports, busyness and business. II Tim chapter 3 says this, reading from the Amplified: "But understand this, that in the last days there will set in perilous times of great stress and trouble- hard to deal with and hard to bear." It then lists 18 character faults starting with lovers of self, lovers of money, and ending with lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. We live in a world that is far more wicked than we realize and there is far more of the world in Christians than we realize and it results in a terrible loss of the presence of God. And the hideous thing is that we don't realize it. James wrote to Christians, "You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God." When one grasps the glorious reward of being the Bride then the things of this earth "will grow strangely dim" and no longer have a dominant place in our hearts.)

Book of Esther. King Xerxes had many virgins to choose from but only one found favor with him, Esther. They all auditioned but "the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favor in his sight more than all the virgins; so that he set the royal crown upon her head, and made her queen". Mordecai (Holy Spirit) led her, and encouraged her and even challenged her. Everyday that she was in the 12 month period of preparation he inquired at the palace gates to see how Esther was doing. Esther was an orphan and she would never have made it without Mordecai and neither will we unless we have a very intimate relationship with him. Jesus said: Jn. 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever, Jn. 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Jn. 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans (i.e. Fatherless. "I and My Father are One," John 10:30) I will come to you.

Rebecca in Genesis 24. We have the story of Abraham (Father) who sent his servant (Holy Spirit) to find a bride (Rebecca) for his son, Isaac (Jesus). The servant was instructed to not go to the Canaanites (the world), but to go to his own people ("of my kindred, and of my father's house," the Church) to take a bride for his son. Notice how important the HS is here. He is entrusted to select her. He showers her with expensive gifts. (Who is the giver of gifts in the New Testament?) And He is the one who leads her back to Isaac. Rebecca had to completely trust the servant to led her to Isaac. She left family, siblings, friends, country, everything that was familiar to her and trusted the servant (Holy Spirit) to led her to Isaac (Jesus) and to become his bride. Note: She became his bride in "his mother Sarah's tent," and Sarah was already in Paradise (Gen. 24:67), suggesting that the Marriage of the Lamb will take place in Heaven. Also, Rebecca was given a choice whether to go with the servant right away or to wait 10 days. Could this be a reference to going in the first Rapture in 5758 or waiting 10 days (years) for the second Rapture in 5768?

Comparison of Two Adams
I Cor 15:45 refers to two Adams: "The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit" That's speaking of Jesus. One of the many titles of Jesus is "the Last Adam". Let me ask you something. When God created a bride for Adam how did He do it? He didn't take every member of Adams body to make a bride. Just a small part of it, the rib. Again, a type and shadow. When God creates a bride for Jesus could it be that He is not going to use the whole Body of Christ but just a part of it? Note that the rib is near the heart. The Bride is close to His heart. The Lord said that David was a man after His own heart. Let's look at the New Testament.

Matthew 25:1-13
The first parable in Matthew 25 is one of the best known and the least understood- the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins. It's a parable that has intrigued me for years and that I've never heard a satisfactory explanation of. Who are the Wise, who are the Foolish? I think you will see that it is not too difficult to answer if we take the parable apart. But the difficult question is "What are the Foolish getting locked out of?" Let's take a closer look at some of the details (Matt 25:1-13) here and see if we can bring this into focus. Who are the players and what happens to them?

(1) All are called virgins.
(2) All of them are waiting for the Bridegroom to arrive.
(3) All of them get tired and fall asleep.
(4) All of them hear the call and wake up.
(5) All of them trim their lamps.
(6) All of them have oil in their lamps.
(7) The Foolish do not have enough oil and they have to go buy more oil.
(8) While the Foolish are on their way to get more oil the Bridegroom comes and takes the Wise.
(9) When the Foolish return they are locked out of something.

(1) Now I believe it is safe to assume that all ten virgins are Christians for the following reasons: they are virgins, they are waiting for the Bridegroom, they have oil, they call Him "Lord": The bible never refers to the lost as virgins. The Foolish are called virgins.

(2) The Foolish are waiting for the Bridegroom, who is Jesus. The lost are not waiting for the return of the Bridegroom Jesus. They don't have a clue about the return of Jesus. There are even a lot of Christians who aren't looking for the Bridegroom so I would say that all ten are in the category of born again Christians.

(4), (5), (6) We also know that there is a warning that goes out just before the Bridegroom comes so they are all awake. The problem is that 5 are ready and 5 are not. What's the matter with the Foolish?. The Foolish find out that their lamps are going out due to an insufficient amount of oil. Oil in the Bible is a picture, a symbol, a type of the Holy Spirit. The Foolish were not devoid of oil. They had some, but not enough. Their lamps were going out.

(7) So what did they do? The Foolish recognizing their predicament first asked the Wise for some of their oil. But the Wise said that they only had enough for themselves and they told the Foolish to go buy their own. So they left to go get more oil. Now some have postulated that the Foolish are Christians who have lost their salvation. But this is an indication that the Foolish are not Christians who have lost their salvation otherwise they could not go out and get more oil. They had some oil and apparently manage to buy more oil.

(8), (9) So what happened to them? When they returned they found out that those who were ready, the Wise, went into the wedding feast and the Foolish were locked out. It's a sobering, sobering picture. In desperation they cry out, "Lord, Lord open up for us". This is another indication that these are Christians. The lost don't refer to Jesus as "Lord". And then the Bridegroom, Jesus, answers: "Truly, truly I say to you. I do not know you." What a horrible thing to hear from Jesus, "I do not know you." When the bible says "truly, truly" or "verily, verily" that means 'listen up, take heed, this is very important'.

Luke Chapter 13:23-28
This sheds some more light on this parable in Matthew. This parable in Luke has been applied to the lost but I believe that this is a picture of Christians. Let's take a look at it. "And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, "Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
:25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then he will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.' Sounds very similar to the Foolish virgins. I think these are Christians since
(a) they refer to Him as "Lord",
(b) they say "We ate and drank in your presence" (communion table?); "You taught in our streets" (preaching of the Word). But it's a little different this time. And the difference is this: these are referred to by the Lord as "evildoers."

Here's what I see as an application. The scriptures depict three types of Christians.
1. The Wise who have a sufficient amount of oil in their lamps.
2. The second category of Christians are the Foolish. They have oil but not enough to meet that required to be the Bride of Christ.
3. And the third category are the evildoers. Those, I believe, are the Christians who are out in sin.
Now we all sin and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleans us of all unrighteousness. But there are those who give themselves over to sin (drugs, pornography etc.) and don't fight it and repent and yet call themselves disciples of Christ. These are the hypocrites.

What Event is This?
Now there remains a major question that hasn't been answered regarding this parable and it begs to be explained. The explanation of who-is-who is reasonably evident. But what's going on here with the door being shut and the Foolish and the evildoers being shut out? If we thought that these were unsaved we could surmise that they are being shut out of heaven and cast into hell, end of parable. But these all appear to be saved people, [they were all waiting for Jesus, they all had oil, they all called him Lord] so what is happening here and why? What event is this?

I believe that this has to do with what is described in the Bible as the 'catching away of the saints' or in popular parlance, the Rapture. There is evidence of more than one rapture but the most important one is the 1st Rapture which will be for the Bride of Christ. Maybe this is why there are such strong and unyielding views on the Rapture. Nevertheless, whether you believe in a pre-trib, or a post-trib or a mid-trib or no-trib the heart of the issue is being ready. It applies no matter what position one takes on the timing of the rapture. If you are not ready you are in deep trouble, and we will see why in a minute.

Time and time again, when God is speaking about the marriage or the Marriage Supper of the Lamb there is one word that keeps repeating itself over and over again and that is the word 'Ready'. An understanding of the Bride of Christ and what it means to be ready is one of the greatest motivational factors to wake up, to take your walk seriously and get real with God.

Hints of Harpagesomepha, Rapiemir, or Natzal
Now some Bible scholars are quick to point out, and rightly so, that the word "rapture" cannot be found in the Bible. However, the concept that is represented by that word can be found. The word for "caught up" in I Thess. 4:17 is "rapiemir" in the Latin Bible. That is where our English word Rapture comes from. The Greek word "harpagesomepha," in I Thess. 4:17, means "shall be caught away." It is from "harpazo,' (Strong's #726, "to seize (in various applications):--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)." The Hebrew word "natzal" means to "snatch away" (Dr. Tabor's Note 9, page 17, Translation Sample from The Original Bible Project.) Would you rather use the Greek word, the Hebrew word, the Latin word, or the English word? Take your pick and just substitute. Personally I prefer 'rapture'. Hey, if 'harpagesomepha' works for you, go for it.

In the Lord's prayer we pray "lead us not into temptation [peirasmon: trial, adversity, trouble], but deliver [rhuomai: haul (rapture?) from danger, rescue] us from evil." The Lord wouldn't lead us into sin but He will lead us into trial if that is what it takes.

II Thes. 2:3 Paul tells us that the Day of the Lord will not come except there come a falling away (rapture?) [apostasia: defection from a state, separation (as in divorce), to absent oneself, to depart]. "Apostasia" was translated "departure" not apostasy, in at least seven early versions of the Bible including The Geneva Bible, Tyndale's translation, Cranmer's version, the Great Bible, Breecher's Bible, Beza's translation and the Coverdale Bible. The apostasia could be from truth, or from this Earth. It is a "defection." When someone defects from a state they leave that country. When someone divorces, they separate and one leaves that house. When the Rapture takes place, we will separate and leave Earth

Galatians 1:4 "Who (Jesus) gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver [exeletai: pluck out, rescue, extricate (rapture?)] us from this present evil world [aionos: age] according to the will of the Father."

Enoch, a gentile, was raptured to heaven before the flood.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The [apokalupsis: appearing or coming] of Jesus Christ.

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape [pheugo: to vanish from (rapture?)] all these things and to stand before the Son of man"

Believers are called both "a kind of firstfruits" and "wheat". The firstfruits harvest was in the springtime around the time of the Feast of Pentecost. Ruth, the gentile bride, went back to Bethlehem during the firstfruits harvest. Later there is the main wheat harvest, at the end of the season. The "FIRST of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God" (Ex. 23:19)

Is. 57:1 "The righteous perisheth [abad: wanders away, escapes (rapture?)] and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil (Tribulation?) to come."

I Cor. 10:13 "God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation [peirasmo: trial, proving, adversity, affliction, (Tribulation?)] also make a way to escape [ekbasin: go up out of (rapture?)], that ye may be able to bear it.

"Objection Your Honor!"
Legalism! Your may object "Brother, you're "co-mingling grace and legalism". Legalism, properly defined, is the doctrine of earning salvation by works. The Bible says quite clearly and unmistakably, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast" Eph 2:8,9

Works! And if you object "Hey, your talking about works" to that I would answer "Yes I am, and so does the Bible." Read the very next verse in Eph.:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." "Works" has become a dirty word in the church. We need to change our thinking on that. What did James say? "Faith without works is dead".

Revelation 3:18, tells us to buy white raiment that we may be clothed and that the shame of our nakedness not appear. The white raiment is the righteous acts and deeds of the Saints. The word buy is used to show that it will cost the child of God to be among those who make up the Bride of Christ. It is going to cost but the reward is out of this world, pardon the pun. Rev 3:19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." We need to be zealous for good works. God is a God of love but He is also a consuming fire. If need be He will rebuke and chasten us (in the tribulation?) because He loves us. Behold the goodness and the severity of God Rm 11:22.

There are many truths that come out of the teaching on the churches in the Book of Revelation and one of them is that not every church is the same. The Philadelphia church is the only one of seven churches that the Lord promises a way out of the tribulation, through "an open door": "I know your deeds. He didn't say, "I saw that hand that you raised 10 years ago when every head was bowed and every eye closed even though I hung my Son stark naked on the cross". No. He said I know your deeds. And what was the promise? That He would keep them from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world.

Favorites! Suggesting that the Bride is different from the Body does not create the problem of suggesting that God has favorites. It's not really a matter of favorites though. It's a matter of how intimate we want to be. The freewill choice is ours. This picture of varying status, and worth and position among God's people is clearly taught thoughout the Old and the New Testament.

Look at the disciples that the Lord himself chose. John was so close to Jesus that he laid his head in his bosom. Historians say that he was the only disciple of Jesus that didn't suffer a martyr's death. (Do you have that level of intimacy that will make you worthy of escaping the things that are coming upon this earth?) Judas, on the other hand, was so far in sin that he betrayed him, committed suicide and went to hell. Thomas went down in history known as "Doubting Thomas". On the Mount of Transfiguration we don't see all 12 disciples, only three. Peter, James and John witnessed Jesus transfigured in his glory, heard the voice of the Father and saw Moses and Elijah. When Jesus raised the daughter of the synagogue official who was there? Peter, James and John. Where were the rest?

The parable of the talents speaks of different levels of faithfulness and reward: 5 talents, 2 talents, 1 talent. The parable of the Minas again reflects different levels of faithfulness and rewards. All were given one talent. One produced 10 more, one produced 5 more and one didn't do anything with the one that he had. Again, I don't think it is a matter of favorites. It's a matter of how close we want to be and how much effort we put into it. In any event there is a difference.

part 2 follows

We are told that there are different types of hearts (represented by soil) and this effects how well the seed (word of God) grows, if at all. Some is rocky and the seed never takes. Some is in shallow soil, it sprouts and then when the sun (testing) comes it withers. Some is choked by the cares of this life (job, credit card debt, frivolous misuse of time, over emphasis on food). Even then, in the good soil, we are told that there are 30 fold, 60 fold, and 100 fold Christians.

In Rev. 3:11, Jesus tells the Philadelphians, "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take THY CROWN." No crown is mentioned in the message to the Laodiceans. And they (those raptured) were "clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold" (Rev.4:4). Nowhere in the account of the Tribulation saint's arrival in heaven in Rev. 7:9f is there any mention of them receiving crowns.

In the Outer Court of Moses tabernacle anyone could bring a sacrifice. In the Inner Court only the priest of the house of Levy could minister. And in the Holy of Holes only the High Priest of the House of Levy could minister.

"Now in a large house ('whose house we are Heb 3:6') there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor (Wise) and some to dishonor (Foolish)."

Salt or Hypocrites
Matt.5:13 "Ye are the salt of the earth (Wise Virgins), but if the salt have lost his savor (Foolish Virgins), wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot (Tribulation) of men." Are you a preserving force in this culture or have you thrown your lot (Lot?) in with the rest of the world? When the salt of the earth (bride) is removed you will be thrown out and trampled under foot by men (this world) because the world hates you.

Matt 24:51. He will assign him (Foolish) a place with the hypocrites (Christian evildoers in Luke 13:25-28), where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (lost opportunity to be the bride and suffer in the Tribulation).

Rev 7:13-14 "Then one of the elders answered, saying to me,"These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from? I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Richard Owen Roberts made a statement that I think it was in regard to salvation, but it has just as much application to being the Bride of Christ. He said, "You can juuuuust miss it, or you can miss it by a mile. The result is the same. To miss it is to miss it!" It's the same with the Bride of Christ. You can be Foolish and not have enough oil and just miss it or you can be an evildoer and miss it by a mile. The result is the same. The Foolish end up with the hypocrites.

Marriage vs Marriage Supper
Look at the chronological order of Rev. 18:7f: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB IS COME, and his wife hath (past tense) made herself ready...And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are CALLED (now, at the 2nd Rapture) unto the MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB." Doesn't it seem to you that the Marriage of the Lamb precedes the second calling (Rapture) of the saints and that this calling is before the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and not before the wedding? The first Rapture is for the bride who will be called to the wedding, to the marriage and the second rapture will be the tribulation saints who will be invited to the marriage supper.

Reference to after the Wedding
Luke 12:35f may be speaking to the second group to be called to heaven after the marriage, "Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, WHEN HE WILL RETURN FROM THE WEDDING that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately (see Rev. 3:20). Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them (the Marriage Supper of the Lamb). And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch and find them so, blessed are those servants." It seems that the Tribulation saints are called to Heaven after the Marriage of the Lamb takes place, just in time for the Judgment Seat of Christ as all the saints must be present to receive their rewards. Like Vashti, Israel was rejected for awhile as the Bride, and like Esther, the king chooses from among a group of virgins. To me, the wise virgins seem to be the Bride and the foolish virgins, the friends of the Bride.

What's the Age Limit?
How old does one have to be before he or she is accountable to be judged Wise or Foolish? The Bible doesn't say but note this: Mary and Joseph were believed to be in their teens when they were married, had the Christ child and had to flee to Egypt. Jeremiah was called as a prophet to the nations and he was only a youth.

Proverbs 29:18
Another look at Proverbs 29:18 "Where there is no vision the people perish (or cast off restraint)..KJV." The Amplified says, "Where there is no vision [redemptive revelations of God] the people perish." The revelation of the Bride of Christ is a redemptive revelation that causes us to be restrained and to pray that we may be found worthy to escape the trouble that is coming upon this earth. Without that redemptive revelation we risk not being a bride that has prepared herself and thus perishing in the Tribulation as a martyr.

Called to Bear Fruit
Jn15:1,2 "I (Jesus) am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me (Christ) that beareth not fruit he taketh away (separation at the Rapture?)". It takes the Holy Spirit to produce fruit. Rms 11:21-22 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's *kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off (at the Rapture?).

Told to "Watch" or "Watch and Pray"
Jesus said not once, not twice, not three times but 23 times that we should "watch" or "watch and pray". Lk 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy (have enough oil) to escape all these things that shall come to pass (in the Tribulation?), and to stand before the Son of man." (Why should we pray to escape something if we already have our 'ticket' punched at salvation?)

Matt 24:37-44 says, "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left (rapture). Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left (rapture). Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

If we are the bride simply by virtue of being saved and in the body of Christ then why the urgency to be watching and praying? The Lord repeated this 23 times. The Lord also said "understand this" which means that this is very important. Hebrews 3:6 says that we are Christ house. Is this the house that will be broken up? The scriptures say in many places that He is coming like a thief. A thief does not come for the Tupper Ware and the matching set of plastic cups. He comes for the valuable gold, silver and precious stones and leaves the rest.

We could lose our white garments if we do not watch. Rev 16:15 "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." Why would we have to watch and keep our garments unless we were in danger of losing them? Paul warned "Let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall I Cor. 10:12" Rev 3:3 "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Logic tells us that if we are watching we will know the hour (the time, the season) of His return. In I Thes. 5 Paul tells us that we are not in darkness that that day [rapture?] should overtake us as a thief. But if we are overtaken with dissipation [wasteful consumption or indulgence in pleasure; amusement; diversion], drunkenness or simply the cares of this life [running here and there; inordinately busy; worrying about housing, clothing and food etc.] he will come upon us like a thief.

Solomon told us that "A wise (Wise Virgin) man's heart discerneth both the time and the judgment. Eccl.8:5"

Matt. 26:41 Jesus said, "Watch and pray that ye enter not into temptation [peirasmon: trial, adversity, trouble]". Could this be referring to the Tribulation?

Heb, 9:28 "So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who EAGERLY AWAIT HIM."

Heb. 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death (RAPTURE); he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he REWARDS THOSE WHO EARNESTLY SEEK HIM.

Parallels with Salvation
The Bride of Christ, and all that it entails, is the most important message that a Christian can hear and get a grasp of. Let's compare it to salvation and I think you will begin to see why
1. Eternal Gain or Loss
A salvation experience can result in the eternal rewards of heaven or the eternal punishment of hell. Like wise, if you are found worthy to be part of the Bride of Christ you will rule and reign for eternity. To miss it is to miss it for eternity. I don't think there will be make up. This is not missing salvation but missing a special place as the Bride of Christ.
2. Black and White
There's no gray area. Your are either ready or you are not. You can miss it by an inch or you can miss it by a mile but to miss it is to miss it. The world thinks God grades on a curve and that same philosophy prevails in the church.
3. Personal Choice
Salvation is a personal choice. You won't go because of the status of your parents or anyone else. Likewise the Bride of Christ is personal. You won't be chosen on the basis of anyone's effort but your own.
4. Extreme Results
The consequences of being or not being the Bride of Christ are extreme. On one hand the bride will be pampered and protected and provided for and sit at the marriage supper of the Lamb and be His bride for eternity. Those who are left behind will not only have the mental torment of realizing that they missed it and didn't have to but that they will go through what the Bible says will be the worse time in the history of mankind - worse than the Black Plague during the Middle Ages, worse than the Civil War, worse than WWI or WWII or the holocaust or anything before or thereafter. The Bible has much to say about this period of history. If anything God tends to understate things and he says this will be the most perilous time ever.
5. Narrow Gate.
The Narrow Gate is typically applied to the lost but it applies just as well to those who want to be the Bride of Christ. "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction; and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way that leads to life, and there are few that find it."
6. Few realize their status.
One of the sad things about salvation is that few of the lost have a clue about the state of their souls. They think, that on the whole, they are doing OK and God wouldn't send them to hell. It's the same situation with the church. We think we are doing OK, on the whole, and God wouldn't reject us. He may not reject us for salvation but He may reject us for ruling and reigning with Him as the Bride of Christ and that is very, very significant. The Bible warns about presuming upon a relationship with Christ that we do not have.
7. Great Breakup
Families are going to be broken up. Churches are going to be broken up. Nations are going to be broken up. He is going to come like a thief. A thief doesn't come to steal the Tupper Ware. He leaves that junk. He comes for the precious things--the gold, the silver, the jewels. And that's what the Lord is going to do. The Bible says He is going to come like a thief and it is going to cause unimaginable chaos and grief in this world. "Watch therefor for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the head of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up...ye also be ready." Those who are the head of a house let me ask you, "Are you watching? Are you prepared? Is your family prepared? Are you going to have your house broken up? Are you setting an example that your children are following that is going to cause them to not only miss out on something that is beyond comprehension in it's glory but to go through a time that is beyond comprehension in its suffering.?
8. Nothing is worth missing it.
Nothing is worth missing salvation and spending eternity suffering in hell. Neither is anything this world has to offer worth missing out on being the Bride of Christ and going through the tribulation. The entertainment, the toys, the busyness, the striving or the out and out sin are not worth trading for this.


Utmost Importance of the Holy Spirit (oil)
I believe that it is the Holy Spirit who will select the bride. He will determine who has enough oil and who doesn't. Therefore it behooves us to become very intimate with him. If we are doing anything that grieves him (wrong music, bad movies, bad videos, bad activities, dissipation, cares of this world, or plain sin) then give it up immediately and ask him to forgive you for the way you have ignored him and grieved him. Then ask him to reveal to you where you stand on this issue. Our hearts are viciously wicked and deceitful and we easily fool ourselves. We may 'have a reputation for being alive (in our own estimation or in the estimation of the church) but we may be dead. Rev 3:1'. Only he knows. We cannot fool the Holy Spirit. He is the only one who can lead us and prepare us. I believe that he is the one who will do the choosing. Doesn't it make sense to become very intimate with him now while there is time to do something about it?

How Do You Obtain Oil?
The only difference between the 5 Wise and the 5 Foolish was the amount of oil that they had. They were all waiting for the Bridegroom. They all became tired and fell asleep. The all heard the call and woke up. They all trimed their lamps. They all had oil. But the Foolish realized that they did not have enough oil because their lamps were going out. And while they were on their way to buy more oil the Bridegroom came and they were locked out.

Before the church became fancy and added power steering, power brakes, automatic transmission, leather interiors etc. it concentrated in three areas: the Word, Communion and Prayer. "And they were continually devoting themselves to the apostles teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer Acts 2:42". We see a beautiful picture of this in the Tabernacle. In the Holy Place, which is a prophetic picture of the Church Age, there were three pieces of furniture: the Candlestick (Word), the Table of Shewbread (Fellowship, Communion) and the Altar of Incense (Prayer). Symbols of the Holy Spirit can be recognized with each piece of furniture: olive oil burned in the Candlestick; there was wine at the Table of Shewbread; there was fire at the altar of incense. This is another gold mine with priceless treasures that can greatly renew one's motivation to walk in this prophetic and practical truth.

Parting Words
Judgment begins at the house of God (I Pet 4:17). I believe that the greatest period of judgment "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall" will be kicked off with the rapture of the Wise. That will be a great judgment on the church because the Wise will be taken and the only ones remaining in the church will be the Foolish or evildoers. Families and churches will be broken up. Those that are left will know that, not only have they lost something that is of immeasurable value, they will face tribulation such as has never been seen before nor ever shall be seen in the future. Truly, judgment will begin at the house of the Lord.

Only God's word speaks for Him. The church of the living God has been called to be the pillar and support of the truth and we strive (as fallible beings) to be one that needs not be ashamed but rightly divides the word of truth. May God grant all of us grace in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, to show ourselves as an example to those who believe. "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out Rm 11:33"

bttt

Reading this wonderful posting, I can conclude:

1. Not all born again Christians will be raptured. Implication: Not all the RITA forum members will be raptured even though you are being watchers, but the point is that there some cases that you don't have enough oil.

2. Surely all other type of Christians won't be raptured, i.e. those who are in sins or just let them fall into sins frequently.

3. Only very very very small fraction of people, really born again Christians, who walk with the Spirit, who have enough oil will be raptured. Without any attention to make any discrimination I would say this might be some Christians who are devouting themselves as worker in Christ Yeshua, who work for delivering good messages to the poor, who help the poor, who visit the sick, the naked, who do all good work, who preach, who teach. That implies that a lot of us will go into the tribulation time.

May Yeshua takes us all home at the appointed time only by His grace and mercy and His glorious joy and love and peace beyond words fulfill each of us everyday in our life ...

Hi Genuestace! Isn't this a great article? I think there will be lots of people going in the rapture, for I truly believe the Lord has a mighty army of His true called-out ones (church), who are completely sold out to Jesus, declaring with their lives: HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD!!

I feel something in the spirit that I pray I can say in an effective way.

I really feel that we have to stop viewing everything we read and hear through the perspective of the rapture.

Guenestace, I am quite obviously not God and it thankfully is not my call to make, but I find the Christians here at RITA to be very serious about their faith and are Watchers which is very important (there is a Watchers Crown Reward) and the Lord is on the minds of the people here constantly.

Moving on I think we only have to look at the foolish and wise virgins to see the separation there.

Many other parables say the same.

I believe in a second rapture as do many Watchers.

I believe between the first and second rapture there will be a latter Rain Outpouring and the greatest harvest of souls ever. Then the Lord will snatch all the remaining believers away prior to His Wrath.

The First rapture is the Barley Harvest, the second is the Wheat harvest and finally the wrath which is the grape Harvest. (grapes of Wrath)

These are the 3 harvests in Israel and are types and shadows for the Church.

I hear what you're saying, 2HH. I have recently told the Lord that I lay everything down before Him, even the rapture- I just want His will and nothing else. I actually JUST WANT HIM!! Come quickly Lord Jesus!

Amen!

To this question, I say, "Yes, PLEASE!!!".

Is this a question? Who wouldn't want to be both??

PS I was answering a question that Steve W asked which is why I posted this as a new thread. It wasn't my intention to start a debate. (which thankfully hasn't happened!)

I posted it here so as not to confuse that awesome March thread.

Bless you all.

2HH:
Thank you for this thought-provoking thread! It is a timely and important reminder that God is in charge, and we must always submit to His way of determining what is best.

Who is Joe Grant please? I am not familiar with his name, yet his presentation is well thought out, and while a few minor points don't always "add up", most of his conclusions seem scripturally based.

What came to me while reading the part about the white garment of the Bride (the good works GIVEN her to wear i.e. not her own works) is that in order to be the Bride, one must love the Lord/DESIRE to be the Bride - enough to PUT ON (read make herself ready) the clothing given her which identifies her as the Bride of Christ.

I have always been bothered by the Luke passage which exhorts us to pray to be accounted worthy, and while it is often interpreted as meaning we must prove ourselves through our own efforts (not biblical), knowing that we are worthy only through Christ's sacrifice is consistent with an understanding that the Bride must accept that which her beloved groom (Christ) has done for her rather than (like so many in the world) presuming upon the forgiveness of God by ASSUMING she can live as she always has simply because God is a loving God who would never condemn anyone to eternity without Him.

In other words – Christ has offered us His hand in marriage – do we love Him enough/do we want to please Him SO much that we are willing to prepare ourselves for the role of His Bride?

Not all are willing to put aside our ways/comfort zones and don those white linen garments of the works He has prepared for us to do, but without them we cannot be recognized as His.

Please everyone, my post above isn't intended to start debate - this isn't an issue of salvation (or even whether one is rapture-ready ) - just a matter of whether or not we as Christians are ready to be recognized as Christ's Bride.

I believe a careful reading of Mr. Grant's presentation combined with a wise dividing of the Word will motivate us to be ready while avoiding unnecessary misunderstandings.

The Remnant Bride Joseph Herrin

A deception has been foisted upon the church. The deception says that all Christians are equal before the Father. They will all share the same resurrection, the same reward, the same destiny. This is entirely untrue. Many have confused spirit salvation, which is given freely and in the same measure to all who believe, with reward.

Being born of the Spirit is a free gift. It is a gift given equally to all who trust in Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. It matters not how long you have trusted in Him, nor how faithfully you have walked before Him. This salvation is a free gift to those who believe. This is the subject of the following parable of Christ.


1 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2 "And when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 "And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place;
4 and to those he said, 'You too go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' And so they went.
5 "Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did the same thing.
6 "And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing; and he said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day long?'
7 "They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You too go into the vineyard.'
8 "And when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.'
9 "And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius.
10 "And when those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; and they also received each one a denarius.
11 "And when they received it, they grumbled at the landowner,
12 saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.'
13 "But he answered and said to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14 'Take what is yours and go your way, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?'
16 "Thus the last shall be first, and the first last." Matthew 20:1-16
The pay that all receive equally is the salvation of which we speak. Whether one lives his whole life in obedience to Christ, or whether one comes to trust Him while on his death bed, the pay is the same. Salvation belongs to the Lord and He can dispense it as He wishes. There is no basis for complaint concerning this.


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9
In the area of reward, however, there is a great variation between what different believer’s will receive.


"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12
Not all saints walk with the same degree of faithfulness and worthiness before the Father. Their reward will therefore be different. The apostle Paul tells us that each man’s work will be tested with fire. The quality, or worthiness, of each man’s work will be revealed.


10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it.
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire. 1 Corinthians 3:10-15
It seems that Christians today have given little thought to the issue of reward. There are many who live carelessly, pursuing the things of the carnal nature. Many believe that salvation is enough, that having obtained it, there is nothing else that God requires of them. They therefore walk in oblivion, ignorant of God’s voice and His desire for them.

Consider again the parable of the stewards from Luke 12:42-48. The Lord indicates that there are some who will be found faithful and waiting. These are called blessed. Additionally, there are those who will say in their heart that the master delays and they will begin to carouse and act wickedly, mistreating others. These will be cut to pieces and assigned a portion with the unbelievers.

There is another group, however. This group is those who were ignorant of their master’s will. They did things worthy of a flogging, but they received fewer stripes because they were unaware of their master’s will.

Without a doubt, it is desirable to be among those who are faithful. It is better to receive praise and reward than a reprimand and stripes. Many will suffer loss, whether their disobedience springs from wicked carnality or ignorance of God’s will. As we will see, this loss extends even to whether the saints of God will be counted worthy to be among those who are called the Bride of Christ.



The Rapture of the Bride

The most popular teaching of our day states that, when Christ comes back for His Bride, all saints will be caught up in the air together with Him. There is much debate about whether this will occur before, during, or after the tribulation, but it seems pretty well agreed upon that the whole church will be included. Is this an accurate assumption? Examining the following passage of scripture may convince you otherwise.


9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where have they come?"
14 And I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne shall spread His tabernacle over them.
16 "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;
17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them to springs of the water of life; and God shall wipe every tear from their eyes." Revelation 7:9-17
A central part of this passage is identifying who the people are who are being described. John is pointedly asked in verse 13 by one of the elders around the throne, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and from where have they come?" The Father is taking pains to identify who they are because it is important to our understanding.

John doesn’t know the answer to their identity, so the elder tells him. "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

Note, that as in the parable of the wedding supper, we have mention of garments here again. These people are ones who had soiled robes and needed them washed. They were once unworthy, but have washed their robes. The washing has taken place during the great tribulation. The washing has come at great cost.

The statement, “they have made their garments white in the blood of the Lamb”, refers to the necessity of their also having had to go the way of the cross, even to the point of death. This is further borne out in the following passage.


10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also. Revelation 6:10, 11
The condition of the wearers’ garment reflects their worthiness before God. If they have lived in an unworthy manner; a wood, hay and straw manner, before God, their robes become soiled. Note that it is a great multitude that John sees before the throne. It was also a great multitude that was found to be unprepared to attend the wedding feast of the king’s son. Few were originally chosen from among all of those called to attend. This is reflected in the words, “For many [ a multitude] are called, but few are chosen.”

All of those referred to in the above passage of scripture were given white robes. Where were those who already had white robes? They had been stolen away by the Bridegroom prior to the tribulation. They had been summoned to the wedding feast. These were ready, having wedding garments.

Many Christians are counting on God to rapture them out of this world before the time of tribulation. What many have overlooked is that Christ is coming back as a thief in the night to steal His Bride away to be with Him, and His Bride is those whose garments are white.


37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. Matthew 24:37-39
It is striking that the coming of the Son of Man is compared to the days of Noah. Noah was a preacher of righteousness (II Peter 2:5), and he preached his message before a day of great judgment and destruction came upon the world. Even so, Christ will come and deliver the righteous before the day of judgment, the day of God’s wrath.

Verse 39 tells us “and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.” Is this not true of our day? How many Christians falsely believe that all saints will be kept from the day of evil, not understanding that it is the righteous that will be preserved from the day of testing?


The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil. Isaiah 57:1 (NIV)
The word “perish” in this verse is “abad”. According to Strong’s Hebrew/Greek Dictionary, it comes from a primitive root meaning; “properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself.” The word is not necessarily referring to perishing in some type of calamity. Another occurrence of this word is in the following verse.


Memory of him perishes [abad] from the earth, and he has no name abroad. Job 18:17
This verse is referring to the memory of the wicked man. How do memories perish? Not through some catastrophic event. They merely disappear as if they have ‘wandered away.’ We sometimes refer to things forgotten as having “slipped our mind.” They have momentarily disappeared.

So this verse in Isaiah 57:1 could be accurately rendered in this way:


The righteous disappear, and no one ponders it in his heart; devout men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.
Who disappear, and who are taken away to be spared from evil? It is the righteous and the devout. These are the ones who have white robes. These are the ones who have made themselves ready and who will not be caught unprepared when the Son of Man returns. With the wicked it is not so.


The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4
The passage concerning the coming of the Son of Man continues:


40 "Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left.
41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left.
42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
43 "But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
44 "For this reason you be ready too; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will. Matthew 24:40-44
Who will be taken? This passage is not saying that all Christians will be removed and only the lost remain, as some have taught. We have already read that a vast multitude of Christians will have their garments washed in the day of tribulation. The ones being removed are the Bride. She is being stolen from out of the church which is the house referred to in verse 43.

It is clear that Christ is the thief. What would Christ be interested in stealing? Certainly, it is that which is most valuable to Him. He is coming to steal away those who are waiting with expectation for His appearing. He is coming for those whose garments are spotless. He is coming for those who are passionate for Him.

What will be the impact on the church when she finds that one is taken and another is left? Those left behind will be devastated. They will have to abandon their doctrines stating that all would be taken. They will have to realize that it was because their robes were soiled; it was due to the lack of a wedding garment; it was their unworthiness that precipitated their calamity.

As the five foolish virgins who failed to keep oil in their lamps, these will rush out to acquire what they lack, but it will be too late. The door will have been shut. The number of guests for the wedding feast will be complete. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2 "And five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
3 "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
4 but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
5 "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
6 "But at midnight there was a shout, 'Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
7 "Then all those virgins rose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 "And the foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
9 "But the prudent answered, saying, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
10 "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
11 "And later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
12 "But he answered and said, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
13 "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour. Matthew 25:1-13
Who are the virgins that wait for the Bridegroom? Certainly they do not represent the lost world. All of the virgins had lamps to give forth light. This is true of saints, only. However, not all of them had oil with which to light their lamps. It will be too late to remedy this when the Bridegroom appears. Over and over throughout scripture, Christians are urged to be on the alert, be awake, be ready.

Again, this does not imply loss of salvation. What is spoken of is loss of reward. Not every believer’s reward will be the same. To be included in the Bride is tremendous reward, as is being invited to attend the wedding feast. Not all will attain to this honor. Many are called, but few are chosen.

According to scripture, there will be three divisions of Christians. The Bride is those who have kept their garments clean. They have allowed the Holy Spirit to perform His work of preparation and cleansing in their lives. They have remained alert and vigilant, waiting with anticipation for the return of the Bridegroom. They are mature and have intimate knowledge of their Lord. (Intimate knowledge of Christ is a characteristic of the Bride and is lacking in those who are unprepared. The Lord spoke to the foolish virgins, “Truly I say to you, I do not know you.”)

The ten virgins do not represent the Bride. They are attendants of the Bride. As attendants of the Bride, “they all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased...” (I Corinthians 10:3). The Bride, however, remained alert and vigilant while the ten virgins all fell asleep. They failed to keep watch and be alert and they were sleeping when the Bridegroom came for the Bride.

However, among the attendants of the Bride, a distinction is made. Five were wise and were let into the wedding feast and five were foolish and were excluded. The difference was that some had extra vessels of oil for their lamps and some did not. Although oil often symbolizes the Spirit of God, I believe this oil represents the good works of the saints for this was an oil used to give light. This connection can be seen in the following passage.


14 "You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 "Nor do men light a lamp, and put it under the peck-measure, but on the lampstand; and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16 "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. Matthew 5:14-16
Although all ten of the virgins had fallen asleep, some had done many good works to the glory of the Father and some had not. The foolish had vessels that were made to give forth light, but they had not ever been used for this purpose, this being typified by the lack of any oil. They were like the wicked servant that went and hid his talent in the ground until the return of his master. Not only had these foolish virgins fallen asleep, but they had no good works for men or God to see. Their vessels were essentially wasted. They had never used them for the purpose they were created for; the vessels being their bodies which are the temple of God. They were sleeping when the Bridegroom appeared.

This last group will suffer complete loss of reward for Jesus will testify that He does not even know them. They will realize how great a grace they have resisted and how tremendous a reward they have forfeited. Even these will have their tears wiped away, yet there will be no remedy for their loss. They will receive reward according to their works.

The wise virgins will have reward, though not of the same measure as the Bride. It is one thing to be let in to attend the wedding feast, and quite another thing to be the Bride who is being wedded. So we see in the Bride and the two groups of attendants, three separate and distinct groups of saints.


Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans11:22
The majority within the church have been taught that the rapture will occur and that all Christians will be caught up to be with the Lord at the same time. As we have seen, this is not the case. God makes a distinction between those who are worthy and those who are not.

There are some believers who do not believe in the rapture at all. They assert that to teach the catching away of God’s children is to teach escapism and to encourage believers to live loose and careless lives. This is certainly true if one teaches that all will be caught up to be with Christ when He comes as a thief in the night, whether they are righteous or wicked. It is not true if one discerns that it is only those who have made themselves ready who will be caught up and protected by the Lord.

I have heard some argue that God has never spared His children from evil before and that He would have to apologize to all of the martyrs that have gone before if He spares some of His children from the coming day of evil. What is overlooked in such arguments is that the martyrs were not killed as a result of God’s wrath. It was the wickedness of man and the rage of Satan that has killed the martyrs, not the judgment of God.

The coming day of evil, however, is a judgment of God and there is tremendous scriptural support for God delivering a righteous remnant from His judgments. This was true of Noah and his family when God judged the world by a flood. Noah was found to be righteous in God’s sight and God spared he and his family from His judgment on the world.

Another instance is when God judged Sodom and Gomorrah. We are told that Lot was a righteous man (II Peter 2:7) and God removed him from the path of His judgment prior to destroying these cities.

A further example is the children of Israel prior to their deliverance from Egypt. God judged Egypt, but repeatedly He spared the children of Israel. They did not suffer the judgment of the ten plagues. I could mention Joshua and Caleb, Rahab the harlot, Elijah at the Brook Cherith, and many others whom God spared and protected from judgments that He brought upon mankind.

There is no need to apologize to the martyrs for God’s decision to spare the righteous from HIS judgments. The martyrs were not slain under HIS judgment. However, an accurate reading of the tribulation period, also called “the day of the Lord’s wrath,” reveals that it is a day of God’s judgment upon the world. God has always spared the righteous from HIS judgment.

A further argument which some have used to teach against any type of catching away of God’s saints to a place of safety is derived from the scripture we have just looked at. I mention it because I have heard this argument repeated so much recently. Let’s look one more time at the scripture comparing the coming of the Son of Man to the days of Noah.


37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 "For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
40 "Then there shall be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left.
41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken, and one will be left.
42 "Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. Matthew 24:37-42
Many are claiming today that this passage negates a catching away of those who are righteous. The statement, “The coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah” is taken to great extremes and a false interpretation is applied to the latter verses that speak of “one will be taken, and one will be left.” What is falsely derived from this is that in Noah’s day it was the wicked who were taken and the righteous who remained. It is concluded that it will also be so at the coming of the Son of Man.

part 2

Those who interpret this passage in this way state that what is being taught by our Lord is that the wicked will be removed from the Earth in upcoming days and the righteous will remain. However, a closer look at this passage reveals that Jesus was not teaching this at all. Jesus statement was that His coming again would be “just like the days of Noah.” Jesus then immediately defines what He means. In the days of Noah people were “eating and drinking, they were marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.”

The great similarity to the day of Noah is that people will once again be caught unaware on the day of their visitation. Mankind will be pursuing pleasure and making plans as if the days of joy and mirth will continue forever unabated. It was in this type of party atmosphere that the flood of Noah’s day came suddenly upon the world. Even so, the coming of the Son of Man will come when it is not expected. Jesus makes His meaning clear by three times stating that He will come when He is not expected (verses 39, 42, 44). This is the proper understanding of His words that His coming would be “just as the days of Noah.”

A clear understanding of God’s deliverance of Noah and his family, actually does not contradict a removing of the righteous from God’s judgment and wrath. Noah and his family were hidden away in a place of safety, protected from God’s judgment on the world. The rest of mankind were not removed from God’s wrath, they endured it. The righteous were taken away to a place of safety. This is made even more clear by Luke’s account of this teaching of our Lord.


26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it shall be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
28 "It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. Luke 17:26-30
Luke relates Jesus’ words comparing His coming to the days of Noah. Luke then adds that it is also like the days of Lot. Whereas someone can misconstrue the account of Noah to say that the wicked were the ones removed and the righteous remained, they cannot do so with the account of Lot. The scriptures clearly tell us that Lot was removed from the path of God’s judgment. The angels of God actually took Lot and his family by the hand and dragged them out of Sodom (Genesis 19:16).

Repeatedly the testimony of scripture is that God does preserve the righteous from His judgments and His wrath. "For the eyes of the LORD move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is completely His” (II Chronicles 16:9). Those who have not given their heart wholly over to the pursuit of God and to a desire to walk obediently before Him have somewhat to be concerned about. God would not have such careless ones to feel comfortable or complacent about their future. The righteous, however, are to be as bold as a lion (Proverbs 28:1).

Absolutely right NC. It is not an issue of salvation but of being "worthy to escape" the tribulation. He wouldn't tell us to pray to be worthy if it was gauranteed.

I have to say that was one of the BEST articles I've ever read. Makes so much sence! Our pastor spoke of basically the same thing. Not all of us will just fly away escaping the fire otherwise he would have alot of people from the bible to appologize for like shadrach,Meshach, and Abednego. He said some will stand and some will fall, but he feels the holy spirit is wanting him to teach the congregation how to all stand when the fire comes. The fires comes to purify & refine, but he will be with us if we have to go in the fire. I was so happy that he was teaching this as I have often felt that so many christians think we are all just going to escape all the trials to come...but not all will just as the parable of the wise & foolish virgins. I pray that I am found to be one of the wise virgins but if I'm not and have to go through the trials (the fire) then I will do so knowing Jesus will be there with me just as he was with the 3 men in the furnace. I need to get busy telling people about Jesus while I still can. I think that is where I have been lacking. I have had a burden for the lost, the backslidden for many months but what have I done..sad to say not much. So that is the area where I need to strengthen. Think I'll go pass out some tracts today. Hope that we all here at RITA are the Bride! There's still time to get more oil..so lets get busy while it's still daylight!

I pray and I hope that I have enough oil.
I am such a rotten sinner
I praise him with my lips, and my sin curses him with my actions.

Thank God for the Blood of the Lamb Who alone and completely, washes away our sins . .

I'm convinced that it's a life-long process learning God's Grace and His Mercy and His Justice . . . . To know God is to love Him, and His Word in the power of our Adored Jesus Christ . .

Jesus gets all the glory for His Shepherd keeping and to His own, He wouldn't have it any other way . . . . He is LORD, He does the stirring, the chastisement, and expects our growth spiritually . . for this we know, without Him we are nothing.

A verse for you, Paul:

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.(Ps. 51:16-17)

Continuing our study, we are still learning, and so praise God for this discussion.

My cents worth re: Who these are coming OUT OF the great Tribulation?.

are these the Church promised to be kept OUT OF that hour of TRIAL according to Revelation 3:10?

Interestingly, the Tribulation saints are called just that, tribulation saints, consistently in Rev 4 thru 19, these coming out of the Trib are never called the church.

It's like the "New Testament" isn't discussed anymore after Rev. 3.

It's just not there, except where the Lord shifts from speaking prophetically and speaks a word of comfort and admonition to the churches, which by the way this book is written to.

Can anyone help me 'see' where the church is mentioned as raptured from 4 thru 19?,

We read of all the judgments upon a Christ-rejecting world, but never do we see the term “Church” applied to any of the tribulation saints after the church is gone from the earth.

There is a great multitude of tribulation saints (as CJ) says, the wheat harvest, which I think is also a fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy in Matthew 24.

“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and THEN the end will come.

The church is not meant to go through the Tribulation.

re:

Can anyone help me 'see' where the church is mentioned as raptured from 4 thru 19?,

We read of all the judgments upon a Christ-rejecting world, but never do we see the term “Church” applied to any of the tribulation saints after the church is gone from the earth.

My theory:

Rapture of those who are saved and ready: Rev 4:1 (mostly Philadelphia, with some from Thyatira, Sardis and Laodicea)

Martyrdom of believers (seal #5), who are then given white robes
(Sounds like Laodicea, because they were naked)

Rapture of those who had to wash their garments:
(Sounds like Sardis, because they had defiled garments)

Note that in the letter to Thyatira, Jesus seems to only hold out hope to the few who are already saved.

I think one of the purposes of the seals, which are opened by Jesus as opposed to the trumpets and bowls, which the angels handle, is to purify His bride or body.

I think after the rapture of the watchers in Rev 4:1, the preparation for the 70th week will go into high gear. The rapture of the wearers of the washed robes ends the Church age. The 70th week will start after the washed robers are raptured and the 144,000 are sealed. The 144,000 will convert the tribulation saints, who will face the wrath of the Antichrist.

Tks Donna for the explanation because first I think there will be only one rapture, once you miss, you miss. The implications then is that the church is the bride the born again Christians, and those who are not in Christ at the time of the rapture will be tribulation Saints. Church is associated with the grace period of God and the Church is the one that makes the AC be restrained even when the AC really wanted to be revealed. The removal of the church is the only thing that makes everything possible for the AC to be revealed thus starting officially the tribulation time.
I tend to be more inclined to this position because when we're saved we know exactly we're part of the body of Yeshua, we will raptured all of the believers.
But even now, if I use differentiated term of body and bride then I got difficulties to differentiate who we are with respect to the body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. Holy Spirit is given to all believers. It is really difficult to determine whether we are "just" part of the body of Yeshua or we are actually also "Bride" of Yeshua. I have read the text explained above about the differences but theoretically that might be right but practically, it will be really difficult to differentiate body and bride. The unbeliever and believer is clearly differentiated by the presence of Holy Spirit in believers.
But that is all just my opinion. I agreed that there is no more churches in the tribulation period which imply all part of the body of Yeshua, churches have been removed. I believe that there are different rewards to everybody as different crowns given to different persons but all of them are saved.

2HH...

First of all....one very big thank you for following through on my request. For the last several weeks there has been a growing sense inside that there is a difference between the church as a whole and the bride of Christ. Exactly what marks that difference is in the Lord's hands.

I had a feeling that anyone could get what I was after, it might be you.

When talking about the rapture and then the wedding of those to the Son, it started dawning on me that I wouldn't want to marry someone that wasn't madly in love with me. So why would the Jesus???

Charity...I think you hit part of the answer with your scripture quote. He desires not sacrifice but a humble and contrite spirit. That He says He will not dispise. Also the key to being the bride is forsaking all or a better way of saying that is death to everything other than Him. As we die, Christ is able to live His life through us. The Father says that He will not glory in flesh (that's us), but that He will glory in His Son. Well, if the Father looks and sees only the Son because of all sin is covered and we're deeply in love with Jesus, one would think we will be able to be part of the bride. And lastly that we walk humbly and obediently before Him in faith, then that's really all that He is asking for.

Sounds simple, huh??? Not so. It comes at a huge price. It often will cost many their entire families, and their entire inheritance to follow Christ and make Him Lord. So many in other countries know exactly the cost. It's painful and can be very sobering to be so displaced. Nothing goes unnoticed though with the Lord.

Anyway...2HH...I came late to the board today. I'm so glad that you've posted all of this. Bless you dear sister!!! I haven't yet read it all, as I'm taking in every word. It's very very good.

By the way...notice the Jewish years he quoted. This piece was done some years ago. Doesn't matter.

YBIC
Steve

I'll comment more, but probably not till later in the week, which means I'll be bumping this one. It's worth a few bumps. ha

Steve, very glad this blessed you and I believe you are being led by the Holy Spirit. The Lord has changed my mind about a few things as well.

We know in Daniel the myteries will be sealed until the last time. Well the mysteries are being revealed and we ought to be at His feet hearing Him.

I want to say something that came to me this morning in bed as I was praying about this thread.

I believe at the rapture the greatest revival that has ever happened will happen. many of the Christians will be martyred as we know under the hand of AC. But for those who escape him and are able to hide would the Lord pour His wrath out in His own Body? NO WAY WOULD HE DO THAT.

I believe when He calls the 2 Witnesses up He raptures the remaining Church out of here also and then He pours out His wrath on the wicked.

This ought to be good news for those who consider what these believers will go through.

Again the Jewish Feasts and Harvests are a type and shadow of what will happen with the Church. The 3 Jewish Harvests are such a perfect illustration combined with many other scriptures.

Guentestace you are the last person who has to be concerned for their Sonship in Christ. Your faith is so beautiful you bring tears to my eyes. I love you brother.

This IS an issue of salvation. One becomes worthy once they accept Christ and are born again.

This has nothing to do with our condition but our position inChrist is what makes us spotless and pure.
Because of what He did; not us.

This type of so-called teaching is wrong and misleading. Will cause doubt and division/confusion among believer's. Avoid

Email: scuggers1@gmail.com

Website: pub48.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=4086901292&frmid=13&msgid=0&cmd=search&searchby=user&searchfor=scuggers

So scuggers just for clarity will backslidden Christians (which is a biblical condition so please don't tell me real Christians dont fall into gross sin I have done it myself years ago (meaning backlide)

So are you seriously saying here that Christians who are backslidden and say watching porn, acting out in sexual sin, or living in a habitual drunkeness, who never pray until they are in trouble, who live selfish lives are going in the rapture?

That is what this thread is about. If you want to dredge up the tired OSAS argument you can but that is not what we are discussing. Please don't muddy the issue.

So what is your answer?

I know a person who was once a powerful Christian who loved the Lord and loved His word who now lives with another woman as her wife and does not ever mention the Lord to me. WILL SHE BE RAPTURED??? My God what a lie to suggest she would. God is not mocked.

We are living in the darkest days ever and as the word says "in the last days the love of many will wax cold". That implies the love (of Christ) was once there.

PlEASE don't tell me or this group that people in this condition will be raptured.

I came back to add: The Lord is furious with the watered down, sloppy agape, live anyway you like and just say oops sorry Lord, Gospel that is being preached all over this land. There is no take uo your cross and follow me- die to self crucify sin- being preached anymore. I can tell you I want no part of this babylon gospel and have come out from among it lest I be judged.

As much as I love friendship and relationships. (it is my whole life really) I am not here to tickle ears and make everyone like me. I will stand before God and man in judgement day and pray to God nothing I ever preached will have caused someone to remain in their sin.

Yes God forgives but He is a Holy God and he knows who truly loves him and who is playing a risky game.

To me, the true church is not playing games and does not PRACTICE sin. The Bride/church of Christ understands and believes that the Son of God paid an immeasurable price to save His children.

on the topic that the love of many will wax cold . . no doubt about that, it's here.

The above doesn't say the love of "Christ's church will wax cold" .. Jesus puts no intimate possession in that verse.


We need to stay in prayer over the lost while gently teaching the brethren belonging to Jesus that He is coming soon, ..

I don't see the gain in hanging on to this disparaging necessity to preach that Jesus is incapable to bring HOME His true church/bride @ the rapture Whom the Father promised are saved.

For me the constant worry over those who say they are 'christians' , (when they are not) . . is saying Jesus will lose some when the Father in Scripture says He will not.

Peace comes in knowing that Jesus said, His children do not have to cower, be fearful, before the Throne, but have faith with confidence because of the Holy Spirit abiding the believer.

Be encouraged RITAians that a true born-again believer desires not to sin, and when he falls, Jesus the Great Shepherd is the Power to pick us up . . the Holy Spirit is the power to save, not us. Isn't that wonderful!!!

Therefore, I believe faith includes a freedom to rest in Him, to come boldly to the Throne, trusting His Power to keep His sheep . . .

I believe as the Bible says, that Christ's true church is not left on earth 'to get it right' after the Tribulation, nor the Bride's destiny includes for her to come back to earth to help the 144,000 and the 2 angels assigned to 'change the minds' of the church'.

I wonder if the Church of Laodecia was true blood bought belivers? Honestly, I do wonder. They must have been, otherwise Jesus would not be addressing them as His very own. Why then, does He say to them that IF they do not repent that He will spew them out of His mouth? (VOMIT THEM OUT). This sounds like He is not gently asking them to submit, but forcefully telling them that they're spiritual state is DIRELY LACKING, even yet, they are born-again. So, they must be backslidden Christians.

I can't get by the severity of Jesus Christ's own words here in Revelation 3. Jesus is conseling this church of His to buy gold refined in the fire (sounds like tribulation to me...), they they need to repent, He is OUTSIDE of their door, knocking. He says to them that He disciplines those He loves (yes, He loves His Church too much to let them continue in their sinful ways), and they need to be quick to repent!

Does this not imply strongly that there is very much danger in this spiritual state? Is Jesus not serious much when He is warning? Does this all not imply in contrast to the open door given to the Philadelphians, that they will experience trial (gold refined in the FIRE)? That they are found naked (without the white robes of righteousness imputed by Jesus. YET, clearly they are born again Christians, because Jesus is addressing them as His own, whom He will discipline...

Just can't get over these facts and although I once thought that all the church will go in the rapture, I've never once heard of anyone explain these points to satisfaction to believe that it will be so.

BIG AMEN TO THAT DONNA.

THE WHOLE BODY OF YESHUA WILL BE TAKEN INTO THE HEAVEN BY THE RAPTURE, YESHUA WON'T LOSE ANY ONE OF THEM.

Yes, there will be a great number of converted people from all the nations as is mentioned several times in Revelation--AFTER the Rapture of the church.

They are called the "Saints." These become believers in Christ--Jews and Gentiles alike, but they are not referred to as the CHURCH.

These saints are simply not described in Revelation as the church going through the Tribulation.

Like Paul says . . we're looking for the blessed hope not a miserable one. The church is not looking for the tribulation; but looking for the Lord.

Bottom line, RITAians, the tribulation is NOT ABOUT the church . . she's in Heaven at that time.

. . . "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you.

..For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" . . Romans 8:9

This are the saved . . True Christians— whom Christ dwells by His Spirit.

Hi Melanie . .

Can we deny lukewarmness is staying on the fence, and that's a choice of rejecting Christ.

To spit THEM out of His mouth means to totally reject THEM . . He is not rejecting His own in Whom the Holy Spirit indwells.

"But, LORD, LORD, didn't we cast out demons in YOUR NAME, etc. etc."

Notice these call JESUS, Lord . .

THEY will be the ones to whom Jesus says, "I never knew you" ... therefore . . He is about to spew THEM out of His mouth. ...

Hmmmm . lukewarmness means, I think, there's no 'spiritual life', neither hot nor cold . .

What a scary thing Jesus saying how nauseous lukewarmness is to Him . . He's declaring He does not possess or own nor acknowledge these 'professed christians' as His.

Hi all...

Donna...You said it right. The Lord will not reject those that His Spirit indwells. Now lets change that and add just one word and we have the other side of the equation. The Lord "will" reject those that His Spirit ONCE indwelled. You see...the battle throughout all of scripture is satan fighting the Lord. Who is the battle ground and what is the reward?

We are the battle ground!!! The reward is eternal life with Christ. Paul clearly defines that battle and who we battle against. What 2HH is saying is absolutely correct, and what you are saying and how you are wording it is absolutely correct. But there are two sides to most everything. If we have any choice at all, and God would not be just if we didn't, then there is a battle and there is a prize to be won. That prize, if we fight the good fight of faith is Christ. He is the pearl of Great price. It's worth forsaking "everything" in order to take up our cross and following Him.

Jesus Himself said that if "we" His followers don't keep His commandments, then He'll reject us. He also said that all that love Him keep His commandments.

It's not straight Calvinism or straight Armenianism. It's straight 100%, every word of God counts, gospel.

We who are in Christ, who desire after Him and desire the pure milk of the word, are His. We then, who are without spot or wrinkle, because we are covered and do the commandments of the Lord, will be raptured....period. But...as you and the Lord both know, the Holy Spirit will only stive so long with those in disobedience. Which means we were once obedient.

What I've been sensing is that not all the church will be apart of the being wed to Christ. Why, because not all of the church is truely In Love with Jesus. They might be covered from sin, but haven't yet really fallen in LOVE with Him. I don't know that there is a distinction there, but I'm beginning in my spirit to believe that there might be, and hence the request from 2HH if she had any teachings on the subject.

Hope this explanation doesn't muddy the water, but instead helps to explain where this thread was meant to go.

All of you at Rita, so love the Lord, otherwise you wouldn't be on this type of a forum. We all are looking for the Lover of our Souls to come. We are the Bride!!! But I have my doubts that all of the church, although they might make it into heaven...are!

Jesus made it very clear that any that have other things that come ahead of Him are not worthy of Him. Although they have tasted of the forgiveness of the Lord, will end up in the Lake of Fire. As I've said before....this is no game. I realize on this site, everyone understands that, but the battle is over "YOU".

What you and Texas Sue bring so beautifully to this forum is our security in Christ. This "is" also the word of God.(And very very much needed) People need to feel that security we have in Christ. For we do!!!

Talking about not losing any, Christ lost one of the 12. OUR choice needs to be Him and put on Christ on a daily basis.

Sorry...I'm rambling. Love you sis!!!

YBIC
Steve

Thanks Steve for your reply, I see the love of Christ in your heart .

On the above, Judas Iscariot was never one of Christ's. Our Lord already knew Judas would betray Him, that's why He 'chose' him. . . .

Still, we see our Lord teaching him and teaching him and warning him. And we know the outcome . . . Judas never responded.

Hi Donna Thank you sincerely for your reply, although, I'm just not quite convinced that you were able to answer my questions. That is okay; I have been going to the Lord with them firstly and thus shown these things that very clearly (to me least) refute a belief that all Christians will be raptured, regardless of their obedience to Christ. He is the one who had me question the beliefs that I was taught in this regard. I am sort of confounded how we are so quick to apply the promise (rapture) and yet not the warning (repent). One can't have one and not the other. The obvious and logical conclusion is that if one group of believers are given the promise of an open door (rapture) because they have not denied Him (have been obedient), then the other group of believers who are told to repent of their disobedience or thus be disciplined..... the logical explaination is that they WILL not be receiving the same REWARD as the first group. Thus they will be spewed out of His mouth to be refined in the fire of tribulation. It is so clear as day to me now, I don't know how I could have denied it before.

Bless you Melanie, sis . . thanks for your reply . .
it reminds how John the Baptist heralded, 'repent, repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand,

John 3:36 comes to mind: . . " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

looking @ John 6:47, , , " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

um, guess I need Scripture please, where Jesus says His death is not enough for salvation in this Age of Grace, but that some of His true church needs to be persecuted and refined by fire only by the endurance of the Tribulation and His Wrath.

To me, that's a denial of the good news. I need scripture, please where 'some
of the true church/bride has to endure tribulation as necessary for salvation.

Dear Donna, my apologies, I thought is was clear that I was quoting Scripture, Jesus' own words, actually.

The Faithful Church

7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[c] 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;[d] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’
The Lukewarm Church

14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

Anyways, Dear sis, I'm not in this to win an argument. I thought my questions were quite valid in light of this discussion. I am earnestly and honestly attempting to take all of Jesus' words to heart.

"To me, that's a denial of the good news. I need scripture, please where 'some
of the true church/bride has to endure tribulation as necessary for salvation."- Donna

Oh, whoops, just saw this part and couldn't let it slip by. Never said that the disobedient church must endure tribulation for salvation. I think it is clear from Rev 3 that they are saved, for they are in the church and Jesus is addressing them as HIS OWN. They are in dire straits spiritually if they do not repent. It is not a salvation issue, rather one of rewards. Jesus speaks much of rewards throughout the gospels. The Lukewarm church will have a chance to become on fire for Jesus by enduring the hour of trial that the Faithful Church is promised to be kept from.

Well, I've been reading this thread over, and over.

And then I went and read the verses in Thessalonians:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Sounds to me that by the above verse, that ALL OF The DEAD IN CHRIST, are being taken in the Rapture. I see no mention of just some of them, or of any of them needing to be refined further, to be accounted worthy, of haveing their DEAD bodies transformed and snatched up. They are in Christ, so ALL are worthy. They are all part of the Bride of Christ. Not some are the body, some are the bride... The Bride is one body, in Christ, who is the Head.

So, I guess what I'm trying to say, is that if we that are in Christ, and are still in living bodies, have to worry about dividing the body up into those who are worthy, or those who are not so worthy and need to be refined further by tribulation... Well then, I'd rather be in the grave as one of the Dead in Christ because..... From a simple reading of:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

All of the Dead in Christ are going in the Rapture/ First Resurection. I'd rather be with them.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



When we are saved, we are in Christ. God no longer sees our own righteousness, but Christ's Rightesnous.

As far as God is concerned we are ALREADY seated in Heavenly places. We already have access to the Throne... Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Folks, it's not about us, it's about Him, His Mercy, His grace, His Work, His Glory!

And, this may be an old cliche', but... Why would the Bridegroom beat up His Bride, before he came for her? Or does He only beat up the Living Bride, and not those who are the Dead in Christ Bride???? (picture a beating of dead horse, here)

Anyway, those are some of my thoughts today...

I know, and that's why I appreciate your posts

I say, the Laodicean church is false . . This is the apostate 'church' where Satan dwells. It isn't a church; it's a counterfeit.

They don't even know Jesus Christ; yet they come to 'church' . These are not IN CHRIST, they are not born again . . They go through spiritual motions, and they are false believers. In the end they will say, "Lord, Lord. It's us." But He is going to say, "... I never knew you; depart from Me .

This is the 'church' that sickens God, they are not saved, and He spews them out, for they are 'counterfeit made up of satan's followers, while labeling themselves as the 'church'.

It is a liberal church run by a cult that denies the true gospel.

2HH...

I've read all of the 2 sermoons. They are very very good. I realize now that I was correct in what I was beginning to believe. It also goes hand in hand with the parable of Jesus, about the King that sent out His servants to bring people in to view the wedding. When so many rejected His offer, he commanded the servants to bring in those from the highway and byways for the celebration. Were these then Christians? Yes they had to be because they had on proper attire. But they were not being married, only viewing as a guest. Those from hell get to see nothing.

It truly is that many are called but few are chosen. It's represented throughout the Bible.

I want to be one that is chosen. I would be crushed not to be able to be wed to the one I love so much. I think that really is part of the key. He is no different than we are. He wants to be wanted. He wants to feel needed. He wants to be praised and worshipped and adored. Why??? Because He and He alone has paid the entire price and deserves absolute obedience and love. He is literally everything!!!

Thanks so much for responding to my request. Special blessings on you dear sis!!! Your insight is greatly appreciated. Your love of the Lord even more!

YBIC
Steve

I completely agree, AbideInHim! I've thought that same thing many times. It seems like the dead in Christ have it made, because no matter what state they were in before they died, even if they had a death bed conversion, they were going up in the rapture, no matter what!

So, I have told God that I'd rather just die before the rapture, because then I was assured a spot and would not have to go through the tribulation to get "better" and "purer".

When you break it down with that logic, it seems pretty clear to me what the truth is! Thanks!

Brother Steve,

What you just wrote about our Lord was amazing.
As your brother I love ya

He is everything to us brother, nothing of this world can ever compare. The price he paid for his beloved children, for his bride.

ybiC / Paul

I like your logic, Diane C

Diane...

Good word!

Forgive me, Donna, if I am taking this too far, again, not in a spirit of argument, but you bring up a good point here and makes much sense if that is the case. However, where in Revelation are we to conclude that this church is in fact, an entirely false church? Jesus himself says of them that He disciplines those that he loves. In other places in the Bible God says he disciplines his children, as a loving father. There is every reason to conclude that this church is part of His own, made up of disobedient children. Seven it the number of completion, there are seven churches, not six- seven is an invasive number through out Revelation.

I'm not sure what to say about the point that Abide in Him came up with. However, the fact of the matter is that the word does indeed say to pray to be accounted worthy; this implies that it's not an automatic guarantee. Further reading in Revelation seems to back that up; there are conditions and requirements that Jesus shows up ahead of time, so that we can follow through and be obedient in order to receive the reward that He desires for us. As any parent will tell you, they would much rather willing obedience than discipline, however, one who loves their children will indeed follow-through with the discipline if the warning given is not received.

Thank you AbideinHim (Chris) for that input. I have, too thought of that. We do know that we are living in the generation of His return and are privledged to see all these things come to pass right before our eyes. I suppose I feel that we are the 'to whom much is given, much is required' generation? Don't know if that makes sense or not!
But I do know that we can bet the bank on Jesus' words and sure feel they are worth a second look at what we are being taught in respect to just how far the doctrine of grace extends. I took the time to read the gospels one after the other and then the book of Revelation and got a good dose of Jesus' true words on grace, love and obedience. They all go together for the believer and should not be taken out of balance, at least that is what I want to make sure for myself.

Anyway, I think I've spent enough time blabbing my own opinions! Thank you for listening to me!

Much love!

I think we can all agree that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Him and IN HIM we're made complete.

RITA is blessed by all here, the Spirit in us sharing our passion and faith and love thankful for His Saving Grace.

God bless our LORD for His Mercy and His Justice, and all that He's spoken .

Donna, just had to let you know that you quoted one of my very favorite verses!

My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Colossians 2:3

Thanks everyone...

You have made this thread a deight to the Lord. We come around the campfire and share our hearts and our love for our Lord. We end being more in love with Him and Christ being the center of everything we do and say.

You all are very precious people. It's my deep pleasure to be apart of this. If I can say this being most likely the oldest of the group. I'm proud of all of you!!!

Love you all in Christ!!!

Steve

Ah, bless you, sweet Melanie.

. . hey, Steve . . I'm 65 . . so do I have you beat? . . anyways us oldsters are still learning, too, the greatness of our God. Jesus has given us all His Love and His Majestic faithful provision . . and we'll ever be thankful~~

Yep, the diversity here, old and young is wonderful. RITA enjoys communion and fellowship within the unity of Truth . . I love this group, . . til we are caught up and share hugs!!!