Dear fellow brothers and sisters in Christ – we need each other (under guidance of HS of course!) to help keep one another on the path to truth. The post below is submitted to you because I respect the views of many who post here – even when I don’t always understand or agree with each viewpoint. To be truthful, I’m finding that sometimes things I have long held to be true are being corrected, slowly and laboriously at times, to be more in keeping with God’s word as it is gradually revealed in greater clarity in these final days. So please read my thoughts and contribute your own so long as we each are willing to ask HS to correct us and help us properly apply the truth of what He reveals. It has bothered me that there is such misunderstanding among believers due to scripture not properly understood, and even now I hesitate to present my thoughts out of concern that I may be guilty of misleading His sheep because of my own mistakes; yet we are told to search the scriptures, and so here are some thoughts which I hope the sincere lovers of Truth will consider and ask Father for confirmation of their accuracy or lack of. Oh, and I correct myself – not all these are my own thoughts – I have learned much from Arlen Chitwood’s website, excellent teachings by known pastors, even much from you folks here at RITA, so these so-called thoughts of mine are actually a summary of the gleanings of many others.

I believe that it is ONLY Christ’s sacrifice upon the cross that covers all the sins of every man, woman and child on this planet – that is an issue of salvation.

I also believe that each believer has a responsibility (and -more importantly – a DESIRE) to serve his/her Savior through a life of sacrificial obedience; but this life of obedience and service is NOT unto salvation (for there is no one who is righteous, no not one , Romans 3:10; see also Eph. 2:8-9) but is a working out of one’s faith (a crucifixion of the fleshly nature – man’s soul) for the rewards to be gained in the next life. We are, after all, creatures made in the image of a triune God, so we also are tripartite beings: body, soul and spirit. What Christ did for us on the cross secured salvation for our SPIRIT; what we do AFTER His work affects our soul (i.e. has no bearing upon state of, or destination of, our spirit).

What does this have to do with Luke 21:36 and how some would apply it to the rapture? First let’s establish some common ground. Different posters on another thread have already brought the following to our attention:

• Christ himself stated on the cross that His work of salvation was “Finished” (Jn 19:30). It has been said that His words were the same as those written on a prisoner’s release papers when he/she had paid in full his/her debt/served full sentence –nothing more was necessary.
• There is no need [for GARMENTS of BELIEVERS] to be cleansed if the Word has already done so (John 15:3) (After all – we are clothed with the garments of Christ’s righteousness – that which is stained only with His cleansing blood – thereby keeping us clean. Yes, we may need to have our feet washed time and again, but not those garments He has given us to wear.) Dirty feet may hamper our fellowship with Him (remember Joshua? Told to remove his shoes for he was standing on holy ground? He was [already] accepted/in Presence of God’s angel, but to proceed in the conversation he had first to remove that which was dirty…
• Christ is the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)
• If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. ( 1John 1:9)
• Believers are sealed until the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30)

So if we accept the five points above - what scripture teaches as truth, then how do we understand Luke 21:36? (Please note the use of the word “strength” in the first translation below rather than the “worthy” used in some versions and remember that “I can do all things in Christ who gives me strength” (Phil. 4:13)

“But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."
Lk 21:36, NASB

"Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” Lk 21:36, NKJ

This verse has always unnerved me, yet as Melanie correctly reminds us, we cannot ignore Christ’s own words! Could it be that we are instructed to pray precisely because so many in the loosely defined “church” believe they are already “worthy”? It is possible that HS could use the very act of praying (a humbling of oneself before Almighty God if done sincerely), to confront such people with the possibility that in fact they are NOT to be found worthy (by cleansing themselves ) BECAUSE such is truly an impossibility! That is to say, in asking to be ready/worthy, HS may teach them to RECOGNIZE the ABSURDITY OF THINKING anything but that worthiness/strength which Christ provides will suffice! In other words if we pray to be found worthy/have strength to escape and think our efforts achieve this, we may very well have to pray without ceasing for such worthiness will never come of our own doing! On the other hand, if we ask for Christ’s strength/recognize that it is only in Christ’s strength that we can escape these things, then we have already been found worthy in His sight for acknowledging our need of His righteousness. It all hinges on who is doing the cleansing work…do we humbly submit to Christ’s imputed righteousness or strive to produce it on our own?

The very fact that different facets/meanings of the original Greek are brought out in reputable versions of the Bible emphasizes the need to consider each angle before coming away with a proper understanding of this verse. To focus on only one meaning of the word while excluding others is to have an incomplete (inaccurate?) understanding of the verse.

As human beings raised in a culture which demands performance for acceptance, it is easy to get caught up in the tendency to do just that: do whatever we can to be accepted. So when we read that the church is to be without spot or wrinkle (Eph. 5:27), we assume that is our responsibility. But doesn’t that contradict what scripture teaches in the five points other posters made above? Furthermore, that isn’t what Eph. 5:29 implies when it states that Christ presents the spotless church to Himself –He presents her because He has made and approved the final product – no? Since scripture never contradicts itself, then our application of it –or our understanding of it is at fault.

Christ who has begun a work in us will bring it to completion (Phil. 1:6) so then it will be HIS work – not ours that makes us overcomers/spotless (1John 4:4 ). W e are incapable of not sinning – how then can we wash our clothes clean???As was already pointed out by another, the tribulation isn’t going to clean up anyone -the purpose of the tribulation is to punish those who rejected God.

Why would those believers who have been proven’ too weak’ to clean themselves up for God be left to face the worst time in the history of man? (Especially if, as some teach, a believer will not have the benefit -as we do now-of being sealed with the HS?)God has said He desires obedience – absolutely right – but this STILL being the Age of Grace, He of all understands our limitations and failures. It is written that if we confess our sins (come into agreement with Him) that He is faithful to forgive us our sins (1John 1:9). It is written there is NO condemnation for those IN CHRIST JESUS. Our failures here on earth will cost us certainly, but I believe scripture teaches that our eternal rewards are granted at the judgment seat of Christ – not before, so the rapture must be what we have been taught: a blessed hope. If the original word indicates a sudden snatching away from danger, then I guess that’s what we are to embrace as God’s truth – it certainly is consistent with the character of God not to vindictively impose punishment upon the repentant weak. After all, He has stated that if one comes to Him from the Father He will in no way turn that one away (John 6:37).

It occurred to me that we need to remember who Christ is and who we are in Him. He taught that He is the Good Shepherd who laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:11), and I have heard it taught that in Israel, sheep would be gathered in a corral, or pen for nightfall. The shepherd would then lie down in the entrance/opening to the pen – literally becoming the gate. This way his sheep would be protected during the night from any predators who would have to first go through the gate-i.e. deal with the shepherd to get at the sheep.

Apply this picture then to believers of this present dispensation of Grace: any and all who are truly believers are His sheep. As such He will gather them/us into the sheepfold/pen before nightfall where we will be protected from the enemy who prowls about seeking whom he may devour. Remembering Christ’s parable about leaving the flock to go seek out the lost straggler, we can rest assured that IF we recognize Him as our shepherd and answer to His voice (his sheep know His voice), He will not leave us out there with the wolves (I see this as the Tribulation period – known as the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” Jeremiah 30:7 and understood by some scholars as being the last seven years of the previously uncompleted dispensation which is yet under the law. It is when God shifts His focus from building His church back to working with Israel). In other words, the only reason to be left behind in the Tribulation is if one has not been sealed (during this Age of Grace) with HS as being one of Christ’s sheep.

As a believer who has at times succumbed to fears and doubts about my salvation (separate issue) and whether I may be caught up in the rapture, I have pursued better understanding of all this and believe the above conclusions to be scriptural. There is no way this answers all questions, but hoping these thoughts will prove sound and so be helpful in putting to rest some concerns of others- it is not intended to stir up trouble. I pray that it is in keeping with the Lord’s will – if not then may it fall away not to be remembered. (Sorry Tom, I believe that last was your phrase...)

Good commentary, New Creation! I enjoyed reading it and agree with all you've said.

I'm only going to address the verse in Luke that you had questions about.

This is the way that I see it, and believe that God has explained to me through his word. When reading the Gospels, we have to remember who Christ was speaking to. We need to remember that at that time, He came to save the lost sheep of Israel, not the Gentiles. Remember that He told his disciples not to go to Samaria? The Church as we know it wasn't revealed yet, not until the Lord revealed it to Paul, after He came to him on the road to Damascus.

Christ was speaking to Israel, the Jews, who were still under Old Testament Mosaic Law. Christ came to fulfill the Law, and that happened at His Crucifixion, as our Passover Lamb. It is finished. Until then, they were not yet living in the dispensation of Grace under the New Testament. The Holy Spirit wouldn't be sealed in believers until Pentecost.

In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit operated in different manner, He wasn't sealed in a believer until the day of redemption, but instead, 'came upon them', often to equip them for some working of God. Such as to anoint a King, for Prophets and for prophesying, for battle, etc... Remember God took the Holy Spirit from King Saul, and sent an evil spirit to vex him. David, a man after God's own heart, prayed that God not take His Holy Spirit from him, after he sinned with Bathsheba. There are other examples of the Holy Spirit coming upon people, and leaving them, in the Old Testament.

At Pentecost the Holy Spirit came to indwell believers permantley. He is sealed within the believer now, He doesn't just 'come upon us' from time to time. We are now the Temple of the Holy Spirit. He dwells in us Until the Day of Redemption. We now walk and pray, and do all things, in the Spirit.

At the Rapture, the dispensation of Grace will have come to a close. The Time of Jacob's Trouble will have begun.

The Holy Spirit will return to His pre-grace mode of operation. He will not be taken permanently or completely out of the world, because as part of the Godhead, He is omnipresent but, He will not be sealed permanently in believers any more.

Those left behind that come to faith in Christ during the trib, will have to stay in prayer, and pray to accounted worthy... They will have to keep their clothes with them, their garments of righteousness. So that they do not walk naked and be ashamed.

It's going to be harder than we can imagine for those left behind to stay in God's will during the Trib and to maintain faith. "When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith in the world?" With the unfolding of all of the deception, and the sheer horror of the judgments, it's going to require every bit of faith that God will give them, and they will have to work hard to keep that faith. Where now in this age of grace. Faith is a gift from God. During the trib they will have to work to keep that faith. They will no longer be under grace, that is why it's so important to come to Christ now, Now is the Day of Salvation. Amen.

To kind of sum up the above:

1. The main audience and message of the Gospels are the Jews. While we can all learn from them, Christ came to fulfill the Law and to bring in the Millennial kingdom.

2. The mystery of the Church had not yet been revealed . Not until Pentecost in Acts was the Holy Spirit sealed within believers permanently.

3. Salvation to the Gentiles and the mystery of the Church, was not revealed until Paul met the Lord on the road to Damascus. Thus the "One New Man", consisting of both Jew and Gentile believers, becomes the Church and Body of Christ.

4. The Holy Spirit's manner of operation: Old Testament, Holy Spirit came upon a person.

5. New Testament age of grace: Holy Spirit sealed in a believer, guaranteeing their salvation and clothing them with Christ's righteousness.

2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


6. Then the Rapture: End of the Age of Grace

Tribulation: Believers no longer under Grace. The Holy Spirit resumes HIs Old Testament manner of operation. Beleivers are then responsible for keeping their Clothes of Righteousness with them. Will be very difficult without the Holy Spirits indwelling ministry.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


That's all I can think of right now.

God Bless!

YSIC,
Chris N.

AbideinHim/Chris N.:

Thank you so much for your wonderful response/post! You are able to focus your thoughts and clearly, succinctly make very valid points. I do believe if people remember to see the scriptures in light of context (such as who is the speaker addressing?)and how they apply to the different dispensations of time that much misunderstanding can/will be avoided. Your post is a blessing to me and will be I'm sure to others as well.

New Creation I just wanted to add for now that I have read part of your post and plan on reading the rest and love what I have read so far...thank you for taking the time to share with us.....

I have to get ready to go to school now ...ug and do not have time to read it all....

and yours too abidein him...thank you

Hi New Creation,

Thank you so much for your kind words. I'm glad my post came across clearly, as I was beginning to feel that I was rambling. LOL!

Yes, understanding the different Dispensations is critical to being able to rightly divide the word in scripture.

Here is a link to one of the best studies that I've ever come across on the different dispensations.

I'm not sure if your familiar with Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, but he's quite the scholar and has many great studies.

He's fluent in many languages, including Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and others. His studies have really been a blessing to many, and I know that you'll like this particular one. Here's a link to one that he's done on The Dispensations of God:

http://www.arielm.org/dcs/pdf/mbs041m.pdf

Anyway, thanks again for kind words. Your OP and your kind words also blessed me.

YSIC,
Chris N

Dear New Creation and Abide in Him - both of these were such clear, informative writings - thank you both so very much - I agree with all you've said ... and I thank you for making them so clear.

Abide in Him - I understand now more clearly how the HOly Spirit was given as a gift to us of the Church Age - we are sealed with the HS as a true believer. Both of these writings ring true with my spirit and give me peace of the assurance of being sealed until that day. It is frightening to think of those left behind who will have to work soo hard to overcome the wiles of the devil.

How blessed we are to accept His Salvation NOW -- if only everyone could read this and understand and believe... while they still have time.

I appreciate your studies and revealing your thoughts to us - God Bless You Both!

New Creation...

I've not read all that you've written yet, but hope to after my test this afternoon. I guess one never gets too old for having to take tests.

A couple thoughts. I thought what AbideinHim had to say was very good. The only thing that I may disagree on is that if we are willing, and obedient, then Christ does literally everything within us (hence He receives all the glory) and as such, even during the great tribulation hour, the Holy Spirit should indwell a believer and seal them as He does right now. They are not living under the age of grace, but the indwelling in the Bible should be the same, and in fact will be stronger in order to win the battle over the wiles of the enemy which will be very strong. But so will the power of God. The only thing the Holy Spirit does is lifts the restraint of Holiness and a sound mind from the world and delusion is poured out in a greater way, so the anti-christ will be accepted by those that perish. The enemy will have almost total control. Not total, because greater is He that will be in them than he that is in the world. That never changes. The word of God is still the word of God.

Here's part of "your" writing:

What Christ did for us on the cross secured salvation for our SPIRIT; what we do AFTER His work affects our soul(so far you're correct!!!) (i.e. has no bearing upon state of, or destination of, our spirit)(this is where the error is.)

The very last statement is incorrect. The soul and spirit are interconnected and remain with us in either heaven or hell. When Christ comes in and makes within us a New Creation, old things are past away and behold, all things have become new. Now you have, in fact, the ability to feed your spirit and see it grow and even outgrow the old man, which is the outter body you see in the mirror and the old nature which is the understanding your brain had before you were saved.(Paul liked the idea of starving the old man or making it come under submission, so that the new creation might reign in his walk with the Lord. As we walk with the Lord, He will correct our walk and lead us into all righteousness, so that we are conformed into the image of Christ. When God first created us, we had only a spirit and a soul. The New Creation is when Christ comes in to dwell and take ownership away from satan.

I guess the thing that I am saying is there are two parts to you that will always be together and that is your spirit and your soul, which is you and your personality traits and who you happen to be. That twosome will be in one place or the other, but the spirit/soul combination will never die. It's made to live forever, and your soul is stuck like glue to the spirit.

I've spent too much time on this go round, but if I can, I'll say more if there is the need with others commenting.

YBIC
Steve

Partial quote from Steve W.'s Post:

What Christ did for us on the cross secured salvation for our SPIRIT; what we do AFTER His work affects our soul(so far you're correct!!!) (i.e. has no bearing upon state of, or destination of, our spirit)(this is where the error is.)

The very last statement is incorrect. The soul and spirit are interconnected and remain with us in either heaven or hell. When Christ comes in and makes within us a New Creation, old things are past away and behold, all things have become new. Now you have, in fact, the ability to feed your spirit and see it grow and even outgrow the old man, which is the outter body you see in the mirror and the old nature which is the understanding your brain had before you were saved.(Paul liked the idea of starving the old man or making it come under submission, so that the new creation might reign in his walk with the Lord. As we walk with the Lord, He will correct our walk and lead us into all righteousness, so that we are conformed into the image of Christ. When God first created us, we had only a spirit and a soul. The New Creation is when Christ comes in to dwell and take ownership away from satan.

I guess the thing that I am saying is there are two parts to you that will always be together and that is your spirit and your soul, which is you and your personality traits and who you happen to be. That twosome will be in one place or the other, but the spirit/soul combination will never die. It's made to live forever, and your soul is stuck like glue to the spirit.

***
To Steve W.:

Thank you for your response and gracious correction to my misleading statement - you are absolutely correct about spirit and soul being together and what we do with our soul affecting the spirit.

My original statement was intended to focus on the destination of the spirit as it pertained to salvation won by Christ. My choice of word "state" was misleading. I in no way intended to imply that the necessity of the putting down of our fleshly nature/soul would not affect [the maturity]of our spirit. I should have made the correction when I proof read my post, but I too had already spent too much time and thought/hoped my mention of "destination" was sufficient to clarify my statement.

Thank you for clarifying this point.

New Creation...

Ok, I've only skimmed through rest of your writing, but hopefully I have the purpose for your question on Luke 21:36. First of all, you've hit most of the statement right on, but on a few, they are marginally off. Let's take our garments. If we walk a Holy life, meaning simply that we desire to walk Holy before God. That is our intention. Our face is like flint, not moving to the right or to the left, then we will walk in obedience and desire the Holy Spirit to work through us, so that Christ might be seen in us, and not ourselves. The Father said that He is not glorified through the flesh, but through His Son. Then our garments are white!!! That whole statement is then to die to self and to be alive unto God. In real terms, it then doesn't matter what happens to us, but it does matter what happens to Him. Have we allowed the Holy Spirit to work through us and glorify the Father through the Son that lives within. We worship Him because He is Holy and worthy to be praised, and not for what we are going to get out of it. For we deserved in reality, nothing. I know that Christ has made us worthy, but it's all by what He has done and not from what we have done.

An example would be if something were done through you and all you wanted sincerely was for Christ to be glorified, then you have pleased the Father. If the "motive" though is that you might be noticed and receive some praise, then you have not honored Him. You though, in fact, have stolen the glory that was due Him. Which is sin. We are told not to touch His glory or the praise that is rightfully His.

When David was chosen to be the next King, the runt of the brothers so to speak, Eli, the prophet, was very surprised. For he was not a man of stature, but God wasn't looking on the outside, but the inside. On the heart. So being counted worthy really comes on down to being sold out to Jesus and dying to self. It's that old man or the flesh that fights against the new creation that has been made within us. We are counted worthy because Jesus is the only reason for our existence. Our heart, our mind, our thoughts, our prayers, our everything is to please Him. Our desire is Him. We don't seek our pleasure, we seek His. That's in essence the Christian walk. That's what it means to be counted worthy. Only Jesus is seen and all our sins are daily washed by the blood of Jesus. In Eph 6, it says to take on Christ. or to cover ourselves with Christ. It's of course meant for our own protection, since we are in a war for our soul.

OK, I've said enough. That's the essence of that scripture. "Motives and where our desire lies". Blessing on you New Creation.

YBIC
Steve

New Creation...

This statement is not correct.

There is no need [for GARMENTS of BELIEVERS] to be cleansed if the Word has already done so (John 15:3) (After all – we are clothed with the garments of Christ’s righteousness – that which is stained only with His cleansing blood – thereby keeping us clean. Yes, we may need to have our feet washed time and again, but not those garments He has given us to wear.) Dirty feet may hamper our fellowship with Him (remember Joshua?

Yes Jesus did say that the only thing that needed washing at that particular time was their feet, but throughout scripture it refers to our garmants being dirty, as we take on the things of the world.

We need to be washed, I would say, daily by the blood of Jesus. That is a washing of our garments, although it refers more to our heart. The mind needs to be renewed, and that is done through the reading of the Word.

This whole thing that once you are saved, that we need very little to be presented clean before the Father is not true. If you take ones thought life alone, let alone our desires, human, not Godly reasonings and also our imaginations, it puts all on this earth on pretty shakey ground. That's why it is so important to read the Word, be instructed by the Holy Spirit, which has been called to lead us into all righteousness, and pray. Daily take on Christ and walk humbly and obediently before Him.

Please understand that the nominal Christian doesn't do much of anything. No wonder they are so integrated into this world and Jesus is on the outside looking in. No...He is either Lord of all, or not Lord at all!!!. He refuses to take 2nd place to anything. Everything else is idolatry, which is putting anything above God. When you view these things in this light, it's much easier to see that we are in constant need of Jesus. The Holy Spirit will draw us, but we have to be the one that is willing to submit. The Bible says about the heart that it is desparately wicked, who can know it. Only the Holy Spirit can see and dig down that deep.

You have true statements mixed in with marginal at best statements. That's why you're having problems with Luke 21:36. Again it's not about works, it about submitting to the Spirit of Holiness. We please God just by walking humbly before Him. When we live with things lined up properly, then everything else falls into place and we will have joy and peace and all our needs, not wants, will be met. In His timing, not ours.

I'm talked out. Hope this helps. If you have any other questions, please holler. LOL

YBIC
Steve

My apologies again for not better expressing what we both seem to agree on – you are absolutely right about the heart being deceitful above all things and so OUR garments needing cleansing. Because I was thinking of the garment CHRIST gave to BELIEVERS I stated that the garment did not need cleansing again. My mistake for not making that clear.

I didn’t mean to imply that once saved we can go play in the mud with abandon. The point I had hoped to convey was not that we don’t need to come daily to Christ for His forgiveness and cleansing, but that it is precisely HIS righteousness that COMPLETELY covers the deceitfulness of our hearts (hence the garment given us to cover our nakedness. We absolutely need to be covered to come into God’s presence i.e.experience salvation of our spirit and the garment we’d like to present on our own is but filthy rags).

Christ himself told Peter that he didn’t need to be washed again in entirety (because what Christ had done the first time was absolutely sufficient), but that our daily walk (hence my reference to removing of Joshua’s shoes, and also Christ’s to Peter that washing his feet would be sufficient; Jn 13:10) does produce contact with that from which we need to be cleansed. (After all, aren’t we, in bringing to Christ our feet and/or shoes which take us here and there, admitting that it is our walk -while we are still here in the flesh - that needs to be redirected by Him?).

The important thing is that we are willing to confess/acknowledge this need of our HEARTS to be cleaned (that’s what’s inside us and can’t be seen by others) rather than looking to show off the outer garment (which is works – either His or ours). I just don’t feel comfortable claiming that the garment (once washed by Christ) needs cleaning again and again.

Anyway my head starts to spin with what is beyond my ability to explain and I think too much more of this becomes nit-picking so I’m going to stop here before I stick my foot in my mouth again.

Let’s end with/emphasize your basic concern with which –if I understand you correctly -I agree: that we not trust in ourselves (whether the state of our heart or the works which the world sees/judges) but always submit to the Lord Who knows us best. And thank you for your willingess to help me - and others here - to better understand the gift we have in Christ.

New Creation...

Read today's post by Virginia entitled "Everything is ready, where is the bride" I believe I titled that correct without looking at it again. It's a very good word for the church today.

By the way, I've always thought of the "garment" as that which represented our spiritual condition. It's called the garment of salvation, which is more indicative of what you are saying, because even though we sin, and ask for forgiveness, nonetheless, we haven't lost our salvation. The other garment is the Robe of Righteousness which not all will have, because their walk wasn't for the Lord. They lived their lives for themselves.

OK, as I reason and type this out, I see more of your point. We would have to go back to that arguement of OSAS, in order to go any deeper.

Very good post. It's one I had never really thought through. I have now though. I guess I'm going to have to agree with you. But that doesn't change the condition of the heart, which the Lord looks upon, in order to determine "we are counted worthy". I tend to look at that subject a little different than many, but it's a whole separate discussion. The key is to walk humbly before Him and put Him first in all that you do and He will make your paths straight. In my book that qualifies you as being counted worthy.

Hey....I learned something today. Yea!!! Thank you New Creation!!!!!!

YBIC
Steve

Steve:

Your ability to graciously acknowledge another's viewpoint as having merit while still adhering to scripture as the ultimate standard is an inspiration to me. Guess we both come away edified. :)

I appreciate all your posts and am grateful you took the time to consider and contribute to this thread. Thank you!

Abide In Him:

Thank you also for your posts - didn't want you to think I ignored your suggestion to read Arnold Fruchtenbaum's(sp?)work, but I haven't yet been able to get to that article for which you provided link. (Computer tells me I need to download new Acrobat something or other and so won't open pdf file. Hoping to deal with that issue tomorrow as other priorities yesterday and today...)But yes, I have read one or two other articles of his so am looking forward to the one you pointed out. Thank you!

Amen, Steve!!! As New Creation expressed, I very much appreciate your posts. Respectful toward others' viewpoints, while at the same time not compromising
the truth of the full Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Such a rich subject this is. Thank you, New Creation, for delving into it with an open, teachable spirit.

I've been needing to spend much of my time in other ways (in preparation for His appearing), and but I do come daily to read & enjoy the fellowship going on here.

My love goes out to y'all!