Luke 21:34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day (trib/second coming) come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”


People are always quoting this, but it's not about us.

Jesus Christ was a Jewish Rabi speaking to His Jewish disciples under law, not to the church of this dispensation. The dispensation of grace had not begun yet. Paul became the first member of body of Christ after Christ was crucified, buried, raised from the dead and ascended to heaven. He was addressing the Jews who were supposed to be facing the coming tribulation.

Read Luke 21 to see the verses in context. It is talking about the same time frame as Matt. 24. It is about the tribulation and the second coming, NOT about the rapture.

If praying makes us “worthy” we need to rip this verse out of our Bibles.

Eph. 2: 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

No amount of praying, fasting, watching, baptizing, or standing on your head will make you worthy to go in the rapture. The only way to be worthy is by placing your faith in the finished work of Christ to pay for your sins. If you do that, you are “in Christ.” Jesus will come for you if you are part of His body. The body cannot be broken.


1 Thess. 4: 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive (all who are in Christ) and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Thanks Josh! Good post

All the bible is for the church but not all the bible is about the church. To rightly divide the word, it is necessary to read in context and understand who is speaking and to whom they are speaking. That will clear up a lot of confusion.

Luke 21:34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day (the tribulation) come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

There is no confusion on my part. Dispensationalism does not rightly divide the word. And I feel it is incredibly dangerous.

Dear Josh...So I take it you are not praying to be accounted worthy to
"escape all these things"? Wow- I will pray for you then.

With all due repect and with fear of being attacked if I say anything against anyone....but it appears to me (and I am just trying to let ya know how I percieve this) but it appears as if Josh has been ganged up on and is being forced to change his mind....in a way..

Josh, I just want you to know that I stand with you 100%. It is of no use to respond to people who are self deceived in certain areas and manipulative. They are manipulative by demeaning your motives, intelligence and character in order to make themselves feel superior. Keep on speaking the truth and don't let the joy of salvation be taken from you.

Ephesians 1:3-12 (New King James Version)

Redemption in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the DISPENSATION of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

Be of great courage.....He is coming soon!

Tom

No T/Sue, I was not intending to sound snide. In ALL SERIOUSNESS (for this is a VERY serious issue), I will pray for him, in his place. The Lord Jesus told me that one of the reasons He wants His children to pray to be accounted worthy, is to maintain humility of heart before Him. I'm sorry if it sounded rude, and please accept my apology.

In His Love, Char

Dear Carlee, dispensationalism is a New Testament Word, and is NOT dangerous. Take away dispensationalism and the false notion of 'replacement' theology creeps in, along with a host of do's and don't's in order to be saved.


Question: "Why do some imply dispensationalism as something that has taken place within the last hundred years or so within the church?.

John MacArthur helps clear up the matter:

"You see, that is just a label that they throw. What do you mean a dispensational point of view?

The word dispensation is a New Testament word, Paul said "It was committed unto him the dispensation of the grace of God, dispensation of the mysteries."

It simply means a stewardship, it’s simply a term, that’s all.

This is the accusation over and over again that Dispensationalism popped up with J. N. Darby, and C. I. Scofield, and all of that?

But we are not working our way through a system, but rather attempting to interpret scripture on its own merit.

Ok, you have some basic things to deal with.

Dispensationalism, by the way, is simply a title for theology that recognizes a literal nation Israel to be restored in the future.

And recognizes a literal kingdom, and a literal tribulation, and a literal return, and a literal rapture, and that is dispensational.

The other perspective is what’s called non-dispensational or covenant theology, which has no place for Israel, no kingdom in the future, and spiritualizes everything rather than making it literal.

Now, what you have to do is to go back to some very basic things.

Dispensation simply means that God manages things in a certain way at a certain time. Everybody is a dispensationalist, everybody.

I don’t care who they are in theology, they’re dispensational. It’s only a question of how many you have. Let me show you why.

Was there a difference in the way God dealt with man before the fall? Was there a difference? Then after the fall?

Alright. Then do you believe that pre-fall is one stewardship, or one economy of time, or one way in which God dealt with man?

That’s one dispensation.

Then after the fall, God had to deal with man in a different basis, why? Because sin had entered the world, and God had to deal with man on that basis.

So He had to devise the sacrificial system which He didn't need before that, right? He had deterioration, he had death, he had all these factors.

And the sacrificial system was instituted and the law was instituted and so forth and so on.

When Jesus Christ came and died on the cross, was there a difference after that in the way God dealt with man?

Law was not the major thrust, but God’s grace was the major thrust. So already you have got three dispensations.

When Jesus comes to the earth, and sets up His reign, will that be different than things are now? And you got four.

And what happens in the eternal state? You’ve got five.

I don’t care who you are, I don’t care if you want to wave flags and deny Dispensationalism, you all, everybody winds up recognizing there are different ways God dealt with man,
pre-fall,
post fall,
pre-cross,
post-cross,
kingdom and eternity.

You have to see distinctions, so then it only becomes a matter of discerning how God is going to deal.

Now what it boils down to in dispensational theology is that we believe that when God says something He means it, and He means exactly what He said. And we don’t want to take the liberty to spiritualize it.

For example, I heard Edmund Clowny, the President of Westminster Seminary, preached on Isaiah 9, and he preached on "The government shall be upon His shoulder." And his sermon was, "Is the government of your life on the shoulders of Christ?"

He preached the whole sermon on that. That passage has absolutely nothing to do with the government of my life. That’s talking about the government of the world. And it’s talking about a Millennial Kingdom, but if you don’t want a Millennial Kingdom, then you are stuck with making it a personal thing. And you have it over and over again.

Now in the OT repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, the Bible says God has a place for the nation Israel.

‘I will not forget Jerusalem, if my right hand loses its cunning etc, etc." God said "My word will never return void, it will always accomplish that which I sent it."

"I will fulfill My covenant to David forever and ever." Right?

"I will restore my people."

Romans 11, "Has God set aside Israel whom He foreknew, God forbid." We take that literally, we say there is a kingdom for Israel.

There is a kingdom for Israel.

The non-dispensationalist says, "No, Israel forfeited its kingdom in the execution of the Messiah, the Church is the New Israel, we're the Israel of God, there is no literal kingdom, everything is spiritual."

And they go back into the OT, take that theology, read it back into the OT and reinterpret all of the OT promises as spiritual promises to the church and eliminate Israel.


Some say Israel's return to the land today has absolutely no significance at all." what, for theology sake? . .Ridiculous, because there is an awful lot of Israelites around. Why? Why?

My grandfather wrote a tract called "Why you can’t rub out the Jew," because God isn’t finish with them.

And that’s all that Dispensationalism affirms.

The covenant theologian admits pre-fall, post-fall, pre-cross, post-cross, and eternity, all we want to do is get kingdom in there.

And you have a literal kingdom, then you’re going to have a literal beginning of the kingdom. And then you’re going to have a literal return, and a literal tribulation, and then a literal rapture, that’s all.

I appreciate your reply Charity. It did sound very sharp.

I will add here that there is no way we are worthy on our own, we are made worthy by being clothed with the righteousness of Christ and the blood of Jesus. When God looks at us covered in the blood of Jesus He sees us clean. Jesus gives us ETERNAL life when we accept Him. Eternal - unending life.

man..despensationalism...OSAS.... praying to be worthy.... ravishing feeling?? all these terms I am learning from this board sometimes makes me wish I was still my innocent self just loving Jesus and walking with the Holy Spirit and looking for the rapture alone....

Good points, T/sue . . Scripture assures us that our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables Him even to subject all things to Himself". . . . Phil. 3:20-21

and ps...I was having so much fun putting off studying for my finals and reading this board about pets and taking to david r about his little guy he lost just yesterday and crying with virgina. My heart was so full of joy.... and peace..now.. my stomach is knotted up and there is not peace ..I think I hear algebra calling .......

Keeping our focus on Jesus, that's exactly it, J/Susan, be blessed, for sharing with us that wonderful reminder.

King David sure knew from his heart, expressed in this beautiful verse, below, and, too, what was God thoughts of David . . He said David went after HIS very own Heart.

. . . "YOU LORD, make known to me the path of life;
in your presence there is fullness of joy;
at your right hand are pleasures forevermore" . . Psalm 16:11.

Joyful Susan, Jesus is coming and it will all be behind us. May it be today!!!!!

Donna, yes, Jesus holds all things together and what a comforting thought that is. When you read Ephesians, Paul tells us that we are already seated in heavenly places. Our spirit once it is born again is totally new and holy and without spot or blemish. Otherwise how could our spirits enter heaven? It is our soul -mind, will and emotions - that we have to keep under subjection to the Holy Spirit while we are here. We are citizens of heaven NOW, in this moment of time (Hebrews 12), just left in the earth for a space of time. All due to the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the sprinkling of His blood on the heavenly Mercy Seat after His resurrection.

JoyfulSusan,

But then dear sister we wouldn't have had the joy of knowing you, reading your wonderful posts, and having fellowship with you.

As you read the posts, just ask the Lord to keep in your mind that which edifies. There are nuggets in each post. I ponder those and the rest goes into my brain recycle bin!

WOW, I am seeing lots of fear and anger and accusation going on! That is not what I intended Guys! We are all wanting to love Jesus! I have seen that displayed mostly.

Tom: I refuse to be offended by you calling me (indirectly) manipulative and self-deceived. I know Jesus does not think of me that way. Please reconsider the anger and the words that came out. I know you want to please the Lord and we should not name call.

Donna, Thanks for the info! I will read what you wrote when I get back from helping my kids and make sure to respond. I am leary of Dispensationalism because of all the false teaching that came along with it (like OSAS, prophecy and power of the Spirit are not for today, two different Kingdoms).

I love you guys and I only want Spirit-led truth to be lifted up!

Okay Josh. But I want you to consider what I said about two sides of the same coin. I don't agree, but I love you, and I KNOW the Lord loves you. I pray we will all be counted in that number by and by (what am I saying, it is so very close!!!)

Donna, that was a great post about dispensation!

Email: Armageddon.thru.to.you@gmail.com

Where’s the humility & love, guys? You can believe polar opposites, but if you don’t speak the truth in love it WILL fall on deaf ears.

Another thing to consider: will the Lord let those who aren’t humble in their approach to confronting others into the gates??

Here’s a great article from Rapture Ready... deep breath, everyone. Seriously.

--

Does “speak the truth in love” mean we are to tell the truth even if is hurtful?

This phrase, taken from the fourth chapter of the Book of Ephesians, does not mean for you to smile as you tell your neighbor that her dress is ugly. Many people misunderstand the purpose of this chapter and interpret its meaning incorrectly. This whole chapter is about unity of the body of Christ and spiritual growth. Really, the main point is to instruct us to boldly proclaim the truth of the Gospel with love, not judgment, as our driving force. We are never to apologize for or sugarcoat the truths found in the Bible. But, we are, also, never to be judgmentally pious or spiritually proud.

Ephesians 4:1-2 begs this of the believer: “...to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.” So, long before any talk of speaking the truth in love, we are called to humility, which compels us to put others first.

If we continue to read the chapter, we see that the focus shifts to spirituality and sound doctrine. The appeal for believers to speak the truth is referring to standing against false teaching by not being afraid to say what is right. But, there is a fine line between someone standing up for truth out of love for the Word and for the other person, and someone who knows that he is right and just wants to win the argument. The believer’s goal for the body of Christ is plainly stated in Ephesians 4:13: “[That] we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”

“But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.” (I Peter 3:15-16)

Note that Peter admonishes believers that their replies be in meekness and fear. Some translations say “with gentleness and respect”. The thought that is being communicated here is the attitude with which we speak. When we speak the truth, is it done with kindness?

This thread kind of got off the context of the main post didn't it.. LOL

Josh, I'm assuming that you have read the whole Chapter of Luke 21.. If you did, then look at this verse.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass,
then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draws near.

What does these words mean to you.. Redemption, isn't that the same as people call the rapture.

Jesus states also,, When these things BEGIN to happen. Not the beginning of the tribulation, just before the tribulation..

A person can not take couple of verses out of anywhere in the Bible and apply them to one's own ideology or buy into what you may have read from other sources without studying yourself with the Holy Spirit..

I've seen a lot of people doing that here, and occassionally I try to point them in right direction, usually without success..



Joseph

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I think Jesus is talking about the redemption of Israel here (the Kingdom promised to David)...that's who he was talking to in this discourse. Gentiles were not brought into the mix yet.


Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Also, good explanation of dispensations, Donna

Here is one of my favorite overviews:

Website: www.comingintheclouds.com/forum

Hello Donna--I wanted to get back to you because I said I would.

I agree very much that in history, God gave us ages or periods of time, also called Dispensations. Like the age of Grace we are in now. And I agree 100% that God is not finished with the Jews, Amen!

My problem only comes from the way Dispensationalist Theology leads to other, man-made doctrines, such as OSAS, kingdom of Heaven and kingdom of God being different, and that the precious gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing were only for the first century church. This is my great concern.

I will not say anymore because the Lord told me, using His double-edged sword (the Word), that I do not need to fight this battle and that I am to stand still and see the salvation of the Lord! (2 Chron 20:17) If you compartmentalize scripture then you would say that the Lord couldn't speak to me through that verse because it was only written for Jehoshaphat. I believe the Bible is a living word and for yesterday today, tomorrow!!