Welcome!
Since I am the only "This guy" on the thread right now, I assume you are talking about me, instead of to me.
You said, "Please listen to God, read the word, not what men have written about the word. Research names in the old Testament, pray while you read. God will show you the Truth and truly, the Truth will set you free, not enslave you to bondage."
I agree! Let us look at what the Word says:
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
I can't for the life of me understand why that is hard to see. These aren't my words, they are God's. I don't know about CALVINISM or what all that entails, but the Word of God seems to be pretty forthright, in that , He created us and chose us before the foundations of the world were laid to fulfill a certain purpose in this life whether it was to be glorified in Heaven with Him or to suffer eternal punishment in hell. I don't want to argue with you or God. Believe what you will. It's OK.
Preach it, Jill!!!!!
Jill
Sorry
If God wills it so, yes. No matter how we abhor that thought, I go back to that verse that says "Who are we to question God". If He chooses to make a baby, just to throw that baby in the lake of fire, then as the Potter He has the right to do just that. We on the other hand have no right to say anything about it. We are not God. I am NOT saying that He does this. All I am saying is that if He CHOOSES to do this, He can.
He HARDENED pharoah's heart. Pharoah had no choice in the matters that took place. God used Pharoah to prove a point and to glorify Himself.
Look at Job....Job loved God and did nothing to deserve the horrible things that happened to him. Yet, God in His wisdom used Job to glorify Himself, which is what are puny little lives are all about.
Not once did Job question God. Our emotions will never explain the wisdom of God to us...only the truth of the Spirit can do that.
Good morning Donna and all, may you all have peace in your heart today while waiting eagerly for our Lord. I am not giving up on 2010 until Jan 1, 2011.
Regarding babies, young children, the newborn:
King James 1Peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby
Peter saw babes as needing to grow and in innocence craving what they need. Though born of human flesh with the potential to sin later, these young ones have not made that choice yet. Jesus said:
Matthew 19:14Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Jesus claims them. Esau sold his birthright, young children and the unborn have not.
Mark 9:35And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, “If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all.”
36 And he took a child and put him in the midst of them, and taking him in his arms, he said to them,
37“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.”
Our Lord values these little ones and took them in His arms. He used the children to teach the twelve a lesson.
I have two aunts who died as children, 2 and 13 years old. I have always thought of them in heaven and want to meet them someday. One gravestone says "budded on earth to bloom in heaven" so I know my grandmother believed she was in heaven. Donna, that is what I believe also.
Jill,
"The word translated destruction is actually atimia in the Greek and is translated 1. dishonour, ignominy, disgrace"
This is a mistranslation. According to Strong's Concordance the Greek word for "destruction" in Rom. 9:22, which is what I quoted in my post, is "apōleia", and the definition is as follows:
1) destroying, utter destruction
a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction
a) of money
b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
Not trying to change your mind. I just want to make sure we're talking about the correct greek word if that is what we are going to do.
Most Christians that hold to the idea of personal selection (God picks Who will be saved) also believe in some version of free will which totally negates the idea of personal selection.
You are likely not to convince them of the errors in their theology as this version of Christianity is preached, heavily, from the pulpits in this country.
In fact it is taught in most theological seminaries in this country. The kindest thing you can do is to tell the truth to those who are lost and gently correct those who will listen. And as David did to his brothers who misinterpreted his heart when he went against Goliath, just turn away. God knows our hearts.
~Jill
WOW! Message received loud and clear.
Regarding the Holocaust because I have family who died in it,this hits a personal nerve. My emotions are involved and I have prayed for my family, for every one to be saved by God's grace because of the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God for them. My mother is Jewish. Any Jewish/ christians on RITA? Am I the only one? Has the judgment seat happened yet? Is God deaf to believers prayers? He can raise and forgive anyone He wants.
Romans 11 V 25 and 26: all Israel will be saved.
Here is the context:
<< Romans 11 >>
King James Version
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear
unto this day.
9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Amen. Even so, come Lord Jesus.
You are likely not to convince them of the errors in their theology as this version of Christianity is preached, heavily, from the pulpits in this country.
The kindest thing you can do is to tell the truth to those who are lost and gently correct those who will listen. And as David did to his brothers who misinterpreted his heart when he went against Goliath, just turn away. God knows our hearts.
~Jill
WOW! Message received loud and clear.
Thank you for sharing your heart, Jill . . I just couldn't pass up the chance to share scripture how our LORD's precious little ones, are all valued and loved, and saved of whom He says: "such is the Kingdom of Heaven" . .
Originally Posted by Mary Kay
The same argument could be made for aborted babies.
Keeping this friendly . . Nnnnnnnnnnnnno!!
As you said earlier, Donna. God is outside of time and knows those who are His. There are some who are Elect and others who are Reprobate. Only God knows which ones.
A big sisterly hug for you. My father's family is RCC.
O Come, O Come Emmanuel
My beautiful sister in law Sue died of cancer in 1995. I still miss her.
In her last days, I wasn't sure whether she was saved, so I talked with her, explained Christ's Grace of Salvation offered her. She gladly accepted Jesus into her heart, Christ's free gift of eternal Life.
3 days later she died. I didn't pull out her tubes while I was sharing our Lord, or remove her medication hookups, or put her in the car, and carry her to the ocean, nor dunked her in water from head to toe.
I believe with all my heart Sue was saved and born again. However, according to the 'requirement' to be born again and saved, she needed to be immersed in H2o.
Sue never made it Heaven?, not born again?. I don't believe that for a second.
My beautiful sister in law Sue died of cancer in 1995. I still miss her.
In her last days, I wasn't sure whether she was saved, so I talked with her, explained Christ's Grace of Salvation offered her. She gladly accepted Jesus into her heart, Christ's free gift of eternal Life.
3 days later she died. I didn't pull out her tubes while I was sharing our Lord, or remove her medication hookups, or put her in the car, and carry her to the ocean, nor dunked her in water from head to toe.
I believe with all my heart Sue was saved and born again. However, according to the 'requirement' to be born again and saved, she needed to be immersed in H2o.
Sue never made it Heaven?, not born again?. I don't believe that for a second.
Regardless of what portions of God's word we choose to believe or not believe God is God and does not change because we tell him he should. Rom 3:3-4.
The scriptures all testify to the requirement Jesus himself laid out for the new birth in each example of the Apostle's preaching the Gospel in the book of Acts. It did not change, and was consistent.
I cannot speak to those already dead (and neither does anyone else have that authority), they are in God's hands and no one can put someone in heaven or hell.
I can only speak regarding those who are still alive, who have the ability to OBEY the Gospel. There are two parts to the new birth, the burial with Christ to remove sins (water baptism) and the infilling with the Spirit of Christ (Spirit baptism). After the start of the church on Pentecost...there are no exceptions and there is but one way to be saved. Eph 4:5
Email: jon_hackworth@yahoo.com
