Sorry all my dearest brothers & sisters...

I guess we need God to explain why He set the Law first then Grace?
Why not immediately send JESUS to DIE Once and for ALL in DAY1 of Adam's disobedience?

There is a time/season for every thing/purpose under heaven.

Ecclesiastes:3:1: "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:"

I know that all of us are groaning within ourselves and so much that we are arguing about God's Ways.

Romans:8:22,23: "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Why is the SUN created for burning?
Is God cruel to the SUN? Is God cruel to the stars?
SUN was not given a choice to burn right?

I guess God is creating a different kind of heaven...there will be no need of the SUN.

Revelation:21:23: "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

I am not saying there will be no sun.
Jesus will be the Light for the City of God.

I believe there will be a different source of Light other than the SUN.

IT IS THE LAKE OF FIRE!

Why there is a lake of Fire?
Lake of fire is prepared for those to be burnt forever where their worms dieth not and the fire is not quenched.
This will be the eternal FUEL created by God for those who never cared for ETERNITY!

Mark:9:44: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

I believe the 2nd Death (different resurrection of the dead) for those dead that shall come back to life and will never die but shall be tormented forever and ever in the lake of fire.

So God is fair to burn those who chose eternal Fire, right?

The Fire is for light/energy to burn those who rejected God by free will. I can say by free will...even me...will choose to reject God.
So it becomes the Mercy/Grace/Love that God has to choose us instead.

God SAVED some of us...not that we are good/sufficient enough...it is by Grace we are saved through faith. Pre-destinated by the fore knowledge of God.

2Corinthians:3:5: "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;"

That is why...Jesus said:-

John:6:37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

It is God the Father who CHOSE us (none righteous) and GAVE us to JESUS. And we who come to JESUS will never be cast out.

Lord thank you for thou hast chosen us who are the foolish/base/weak/despised things of this world unto Thine Glory Forever and Ever!

1Corinthians:1:27-29: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence."

Email: mikettc2002@yahoo.com.sg

Website: www.simplesite.com/7churches

This guy is trying to justify Calvinism Biblically. Which you can do if you hold to all FIVE of the points of Calvinism. Total depravity of man, unconditional election (selective election, God picks WHO will believe), Limited atonement (Jesus did not die for all but only those who would be saved), Irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints.

The Limited atonement is not God's will as He is not willing that ANY should perish. Without free will (which the 5 points of Calvinism deny and Darby equates with sin) God is just programming puppets, and how would the events in the Garden of Eden have taken place? God did not create man in sin, man fell, by CHOICE.

God has chosen from the foundations of the world that some would believe, NOT WHO. His grace is available to ALL, but if you chose to ignore His grace eventually He will harden your heart and you will not be able to believe.

If you believe that God picks who will believe then the other side of that is that God picks who will go to hell for all eternity. This so impugns the character of God. Why bother evangelizing? What about your children?

The verse about Jacob and Esau is referring to the nations of Edom and Israel. The greater shall serve the lesser.

Calvinism tries to make an unlimited God fit within the frame work of the human mind. God can choose, by virtue of the fact that He created them, all men, He can make salvation available to ALL men, it is up to the man to make the choice to eat of the bread of life, or believe the lie Satan delivers. Faith is easy, salvation is easy, otherwise no one would be saved. Once saved it is up to God to keep you that way.

Man is not able to save himself or keep himself saved. If the law could save you then where is the need for the cross and Jesus?

So many people are lost because they are not told of grace. They don't understand grace and they think that somehow you must obey the law to have grace which is not grace as Paul points out in Galatians 2. The issue is no longer SIN it is relationship with God through Jesus.

Calvinism is EVIL..it promotes self righteousness, and a "special people" mentality in the church. If in fact God does pick who will believe how can you really be sure you were one of the picked? How about the babies that die before the age of accountability? If they are picked then the obvious destination for them is HELL. Is this the God you worship? Because it is not the God I know.

Sorry to rant on this. I have been hurt badly, personally because of this awful theology.

Please listen to God, read the word, not what men have written about the word. Research names in the old Testament, pray while you read. God will show you the Truth and truly, the Truth will set you free, not enslave you to bondage.
Merry Christmas,
Jill

Email: davenjilli@gmail.com

Since I am the only "This guy" on the thread right now, I assume you are talking about me, instead of to me.

You said, "Please listen to God, read the word, not what men have written about the word. Research names in the old Testament, pray while you read. God will show you the Truth and truly, the Truth will set you free, not enslave you to bondage."

I agree! Let us look at what the Word says:

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.


Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I can't for the life of me understand why that is hard to see. These aren't my words, they are God's. I don't know about CALVINISM or what all that entails, but the Word of God seems to be pretty forthright, in that , He created us and chose us before the foundations of the world were laid to fulfill a certain purpose in this life whether it was to be glorified in Heaven with Him or to suffer eternal punishment in hell. I don't want to argue with you or God. Believe what you will. It's OK.

Nope I wasn't talking to or about you, I was talking about the sermon audio that was posted in the original message.

Jill

Email: davenjilli@gmail.com

I agree! Let us look at what the Word says:

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.


Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, WHICH HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY,

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Paul is talking about the Jews in this chapter. His point is that who CAN resist the will of God? If God wills something it WILL be done. Paul is also saying that we should be content with the place God has placed us. Why should the pot say to the potter..why should we tell God we are not happy that He placed us in the situations He has placed us. Not that He made us for HELL.

And yes He does harden your heart if you reject His grace long enough. Even the Pharaoh got many opportunities to see grace in action, but chose not to accept, and then God hardened His heart. If you take anything in the Bible out of context you can get it to say what ever you want. The Bible is an integrated message from God. God's character is not changing nor does one facet contradict another.

~Jill

Email: davenjilli@gmail.com

Jill,

If God didn't make some for hell then what does "fitted for destruction" in verse 22 mean?

And He is not only talking about the Jews, because in verse 24 it says:

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

"also of the gentiles"

It doesn't say God offered Pharoah any grace so that when he rejected it his heart was hardened. It just says God hardened Pharoahs heart.

Exd 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said
Exd 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

If you go to blue letter bible online and type in "hardened" you will read verse after verse where God hardened someone's heart without offering any way out or choice. They did what God wanted without any recourse. If you want to call that being a puppet, OK.

The word translated destruction is actually atimia in the Greek and is translated 1. dishonour, ignominy, disgrace

God makes some people kings and princes and others of us just the lowly rabble. It is not up to us to question why God put us where He choose to put us.

Every person God has created will glorify Him in someway, it is His will that that is so, even those who do not choose for Him.

Really it is between you and God what you believe about election. I am not interested in trying to convince you about the errors of misinterpreting the Word, any more than I think you are trying to do the same to me. I have come to the position I hold after much study and mentoring by men who read from the original languages and who study the Bible as a complete entity. I say this only to explain why I do not hold the position I hold lightly. (not to brag or disparage you in any way)

I do understand why many professing Christians hold the position you do. Many of the great theologians through time have held your position..they were also professing Calvinists. (no I am not an Armenian either). Much good doctrine has come from these men, but as was stated in the original post, all of how you view God has to do with how you view salvation.

Just stuff for you to ponder.
Your sister in Christ,
Jill

Email: davenjilli@gmail.com

Good morning Donna and all, may you all have peace in your heart today while waiting eagerly for our Lord. I am not giving up on 2010 until Jan 1, 2011.

Regarding babies, young children, the newborn:
King James 1Peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby
Peter saw babes as needing to grow and in innocence craving what they need. Though born of human flesh with the potential to sin later, these young ones have not made that choice yet. Jesus said:

Matthew 19:14Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. Jesus claims them. Esau sold his birthright, young children and the unborn have not.

Mark 9:35And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, “If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all.”
36 And he took a child and put him in the midst of them, and taking him in his arms, he said to them,
37“Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.”
Our Lord values these little ones and took them in His arms. He used the children to teach the twelve a lesson.

I have two aunts who died as children, 2 and 13 years old. I have always thought of them in heaven and want to meet them someday. One gravestone says "budded on earth to bloom in heaven" so I know my grandmother believed she was in heaven. Donna, that is what I believe also.

Jill,

"The word translated destruction is actually atimia in the Greek and is translated 1. dishonour, ignominy, disgrace"

This is a mistranslation. According to Strong's Concordance the Greek word for "destruction" in Rom. 9:22, which is what I quoted in my post, is "apōleia", and the definition is as follows:

1) destroying, utter destruction

a) of vessels

2) a perishing, ruin, destruction

a) of money

b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell


Not trying to change your mind. I just want to make sure we're talking about the correct greek word if that is what we are going to do.

Amen, and amen!!

The Lord reigns!, and He does so sovereignly.

Keep me I pray Lord, from a presumptuios spirit. And grant me your grace and mercy, for me a sinner!

Love & blessings...Tender Reed

A big sisterly hug for you. My father's family is RCC.

O Come, O Come Emmanuel

SDS,

You are correct, I was looking at a different verse..

~Jill

Email: davenjilli@gmail.com

Amen Regina!!!!!! That is the one song....that explains it all!!!!

The Lord knows all our hearts, and keeps good books.

As far as Free will goes versus Predestination, i think perhaps its a bit of both, but from different perspectives, that being from mans perspective one view, Gods perspective, yet another.

I do know one thing, That is if one wants to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, they have to become as a little child.

Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Jesus loves me this i know, because the bible tells me so!
Leroy

Email: joshua8661@yahoo.com

Email: jon_hackworth@yahoo.com

Email: joshua8661@yahoo.com

Email: jon_hackworth@yahoo.com

Donna

My beautiful sister in law Sue died of cancer in 1995. I still miss her.

In her last days, I wasn't sure whether she was saved, so I talked with her, explained Christ's Grace of Salvation offered her. She gladly accepted Jesus into her heart, Christ's free gift of eternal Life.

3 days later she died. I didn't pull out her tubes while I was sharing our Lord, or remove her medication hookups, or put her in the car, and carry her to the ocean, nor dunked her in water from head to toe.

I believe with all my heart Sue was saved and born again. However, according to the 'requirement' to be born again and saved, she needed to be immersed in H2o.

Sue never made it Heaven?, not born again?. I don't believe that for a second.

Email: jon_hackworth@yahoo.com

Baptism is only a shadow and symbol:

Baptisim dont remove sins. Only the Lamb of God does.

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Baptisim, wunderful as it is, is only a shadow and symbol of what jesus did on the cross.

Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins:

Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


Seems pretty clear to me. its His blood that cleanses our sin.

Leroy

Email: joshua8661@yahoo.com

Email: jon_hackworth@yahoo.com

Read further on in Hebrews, the how has already taken place.

Leroy

Email: joshua8661@yahoo.com

Email: jon_hackworth@yahoo.com

Email: jon_hackworth@yahoo.com

Email: joshua8661@yahoo.com

Thanks sds . .

Dear Diana I really appreciate the Holy Spirit's words that stirred you to share the Truth yesterday . . thank you, sis